Was I really out of line here?

[seleswannabe]

I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

[canadave]

Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."

Originally Posted by canadave

Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."

They had already had their drills/practice, unless I am missing something. This was a set they were playing. That is when you step it up and play "your game." Totally not out of line IMO.

[Topaz]

Wow, Canadave, I'm going to really have to disagree with you here.

What is the point of practicing? To me, it is to get better and to win in your matches. That is why they say...play like you practice.

It seems to me that is was the *other* gal who got upset because she couldn't win. I bet her lobbing strategy (like the OP says) wins her a lot of matches, and she has never been forced to change her strategy against her opponents and come up with a plan 'B'. The OP changed what was a losing strategy for her, and ended up winning. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you are losing a match? And now, when the OP comes up against a 'lobber' in a singles match, she will know what game plan she needs to implement to win.

The other woman is going to have to deal with the fact that she got beat, fair and square, and she may have to go back to the drawing board to learn some other types of shots. I bet she wasn't complaining to the OP after she won the first set!

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by canadave

Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."

I don't agree with this at all. If they are playing sets, then the objective is not to hit cooperatively...the objective is to win points. That is why they have cooperative drills. There is no purpose to play sets if you are not trying to win points.

[Cindysphinx]

:: blinks::

Were you out of line? Absolutely not.

Was she out of line? Yes. *Way* out of line.

I mean . . . come *on.* You played your style of tennis, she played hers. Yours is better. Why is this a problem?

I have had that problem in social tennis. Some people think social tennis means you should never do anything aggressive. You shouldn't pressure them, hit hard, come to net, volley at them.

Honestly, I think the default setting is you always play full out unless there is some obvious reason not to. That would be when you are playing an octogenarian, a small child, someone far below your level. Let's not get us all into a situation where we have to go up to our opponents and make an agreement that today we will play tennis the best we can and go all out.

Now, if this were a drill and you were blasting for winners when you were supposed to be playing cooperative drills, that would be something else.

[canadave]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

They had already had their drills/practice, unless I am missing something. This was a set they were playing. That is when you step it up and play "your game." Totally not out of line IMO.

Hmmm. I just re-read it. Maybe you're right--if this was indeed a "match" at the end of practice, with everyone knowing "hey, at the end of practice, we're going to play a real match, so be ready", then I guess the OP wasn't out of line at all--my apologies.

However, I still think that as captain, you need to not just destroy someone 6-1 in a practice match against one of your players and walk away. First off, if the other player wasn't aware that this was what was going to be happening, there needed to be better communication. Secondly, if the score is 6-1 and the lobber lost badly, there should be some attempt to touch base (preferably during the set) and figure out what's going on and try to improve. At 4-1, if I'm captain, and winning easily, I'd stop things, talk to the player, try to debrief what's going on. It's still practice.

I'd also suggest that if the losing player is a doubles specialist and obviously can't play singles very well (if she's just lobbing all the time), then she probably needs help with her singles--and destroying her 6-1 in practice probably isn't the best way to help her state of mind, which is obviously fragile to begin with (hence the meltdown afterward).

That being said--yeah, I agree with you and Cindy, if the losing player is just stamping her feet because she's upset she lost, then that's not cool.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by seleswannabe

I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

Kick her off the team.

Good luck.

[Topaz]

Canadave, what do you mean by saying the other player isn't aware of what is happening?!? She is on a tennis court, playing a match with people keeping score!

BTW, being captain doesn't mean you are the best player...just means you handle the paperwork. The OP is not a 'pro', just another player on the team.

What is this other player going to do in a real match situation if she runs into someone who played like the OP did? Cry and complain??? Lol, I mean...'cmon!!!

Cindy is right...it is the *other* woman who is way, WAY out of line. If she can't take the heat, she needs to get off of the court.

[Cindysphinx]

I don't think it is up to the winning player to stop the set and tell the losing player what she should do differently, even in a team practice. It is up to the losing player to do that if she thinks it would be helpful.

I play a woman in practice doubles who does what you suggest. She starts winning, and then she starts saying things to her losing opponents like, "We're up two breaks. What are you guys going to start doing differently to turn it around?"

I find this *highly* obnoxious. We are grown women and experienced players. We will decide what adjustments to make, and when.

Hey, I captain teams. If I am having a practice match with teammates, I go all out (unless I'm trying to implement some new skill) and I try to win every set 6-0. And I don't coach unless I am asked *and* have a very clear idea what the others are doing wrong and some tactical suggestion.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by seleswannabe

I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

She's out of line, not you. There is absolutely no reason to play any differently in "practice" then you would in a match.

That's the point of "practice" when you play matches, you play how you should be playing in a match.

If you were the teaching pro and a 4.5 or better player then she would have some complaint maybe but you are at her skill level. Who's to say she wont see someone like you in the actual league match.

Also it's supposed to be practice for YOU as well (after all, you do play on the team, right?). Is she that selfish that she doesn't consider that?

I dont know if someone was like this on my team I would wish they were not there. This whining because someone expects another person to play down is really strange.

If someone's good enough to beat me 6-0, then I expect they should beat me 6-0, I dont want them playing down to me. (unless they are several skill levels ahead of me and it's just ******** if I cant get anything back)

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by drakulie

Kick her off the team.

Good luck.

Nah, no need for that.

You are 3.0 players. The great thing about 3.0 tennis is that you will undoubtedly move up. With luck, you will move up before she will. Then you can start a new team and you will lack room for people who um . . . how can I put it? . . . . haven't made the mental adjustments needed to be competitive at a higher level.

[canadave]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I don't think it is up to the winning player to stop the set and tell the losing player what she should do differently, even in a team practice. It is up to the losing player to do that if she thinks it would be helpful.

I play a woman in practice doubles who does what you suggest. She starts winning, and then she starts saying things to her losing opponents like, "We're up two breaks. What are you guys going to start doing differently to turn it around?"

I find this *highly* obnoxious. We are grown women and experienced players. We will decide what adjustments to make, and when.

Hey, I captain teams. If I am having a practice match with teammates, I go all out (unless I'm trying to implement some new skill) and I try to win every set 6-0. And I don't coach unless I am asked *and* have a very clear idea what the others are doing wrong and some tactical suggestion.

LOL....well, I wouldn't want to phrase it quite as obnoxiously as that woman you mention! That's pretty bad--and pretty obnoxious

I don't know. I guess I wouldn't be good on a tennis team then. I've played on teams, and played tennis, and as far as I'm concerned in practice with teammates you try to work on your own skills but also offer to debrief with your teammate if you see they're having difficulties. I think that's preferable to simply destroying them without comment. But I'll defer to you folks, since I don't have the tennis team experience to speak authoritatively on the subject.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by seleswannabe

I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

C'mon, you wanted to boast about your serve and your win on this board. Just admit it

[Cindysphinx]

What did your teammates say? Come on, tell us. I'm dying to know!!

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Nah, no need for that.

Sure there is. She'll learn to keep her trap shut, and play tennis. I guarantee this is the type of person that plays outside the rules and footfaults all the time.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by drakulie

Sure there is. She'll learn to keep her trap shut, and play tennis. I guarantee this is the type of person that plays outside the rules and footfaults all the time.

On Sunday, I was watching some high level doubles before my game (at least 4.5 I should say) - 3 men and 1 woman, and she was real good. But she footfaulted on EVERY serve. Her foot slid and moved inside the court well before the ball was struck. I don't know how to judge such people. Should I assume that they have a good serve or not? Because they may be so grooved into it that making them stop footfaulting may destroy their serve. How do these club players react to forced changes in serve habits? Do they collapse or do they adapt? Got me thinking.

[drakulie]

^^^In my book, if a person foot faults, the serve doesn't count. So, if they can't get the ball in the box without footfaulting, then they have a crappy serve.

I agree also there is a lot of high level players who foot fault quite a bit. When they are told they are footfaulting, if it is a hitch (part of their routine) in their mechanics, it usually throws them off when they try to correct it.

[Gemini]

seleswannabe..you were definitely NOT out of line. I wouldn't boot her off the team but I would share with her that "My objective in playing that set the way I did was to be aggressive and play my game regardless of the opponent. Practice, for me, is about developing my game, not just fun."

[Cindysphinx]

If you kick her off the team (or retailiate in any way), it will be a Big Fat Scandal in your little tennis world. You will be the Bad Guy who Abused Her Power. It will be the talk of town, I assure you.

Some people get off on that kind of thing and love being the Bully, but you don't sound like that, seleswannabe.

To me, this is one of those Do Nothing, Say Nothing moments. Maybe she will come to you and apologize, maybe not. If so, that will tell you something. If not, that will also tell you something. Either way, you've nothing to gain by being small.