Better slice backhand: Graf or Navratilova?

Lionheart392 · 08-07-2009, 03:51 PM

Both very effective, personally I pick Graf because although many people today dismiss her as 'only having a slice backhand' (which isn't true, but anyway...), it was an extremely effective shot that allowed her to construct points and set up perfect forehand winners. It was also deceptive in that it was kept so low that an opponent might mistakenly expect to be able to pounce on it. It's an extremely underrated shot IMO. No doubt Navratilova's was excellent too but for me wasn't quite as impressive. Thoughts?

scootad. · 08-07-2009, 04:08 PM

This is what is missing in today's game. A good slice.

Steffi's slice was knifed like none other. Very reliable, usually hit very deep and often putting players on their back foot.

Lionheart392 · 08-07-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julesb

Graf had no talent. She had no good shots. She won all her titles beating old way past their prime greats in their 30s (Martina and Chris), talentless moonballers (Sanchez and Martinez), talented choking mental midgets (Sabatini, Spirlea, and Novotna), lazy underachievers (Zvereva), inconsistent out of shape brainless ball bashers (Pierce and young Davenport), 15 year olds (Sanchez in 88, Seles in 89, Hingis in 96), clumsy slamless storks with no movement or agility (Shriver and Sukova), a bunch of talentless wannabees (Date, Coetzer, Huber, Majoli, 3 Maleeva sisters, Garrison, Fernandez, Rubin, Kohde-Kilsch), even more talentless wannabees (Tauziat, Weisner, Kelesi, Paulus, Meski, Frazier, Schultz McCarthy, Halard Decugis, Sawamatsu) and stabbed and not grunting women (Seles after stabbing or in 92 Wimbledon final).

Jules please, this thread has nothing to do with Seles, or Graf's competition. It's about Graf and Navratilova's backhands. If you wish to do your usual Graf spiel, please do so elsewhere.

Lionheart392 · 08-07-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootad.

This is what is missing in today's game. A good slice.

Steffi's slice was knifed like none other. Very reliable, usually hit very deep and often putting players on their back foot.

Ah yes that's another big point I forgot to mention, her slice virtually never missed, it was extremely consistent and rarely let her down. At the Wimbledon exhibition earlier this year she had a couple of errors from her backhand slice in a game and the commentator said that she'd missed more slices in that game than she did in her entire career.

Barricade V · 08-07-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julesb

Graf had no talent. She had no good shots. She won all her titles beating old way past their prime greats in their 30s (Martina and Chris), talentless moonballers (Sanchez and Martinez), talented choking mental midgets (Sabatini, Spirlea, and Novotna), lazy underachievers (Zvereva), inconsistent out of shape brainless ball bashers (Pierce and young Davenport), 15 year olds (Sanchez in 88, Seles in 89, Hingis in 96), clumsy slamless storks with no movement or agility (Shriver and Sukova), a bunch of talentless wannabees (Date, Coetzer, Huber, Majoli, 3 Maleeva sisters, Garrison, Fernandez, Rubin, Kohde-Kilsch), even more talentless wannabees (Tauziat, Weisner, Kelesi, Paulus, Meski, Frazier, Schultz McCarthy, Halard Decugis, Sawamatsu) and stabbed and not grunting women (Seles after stabbing or in 92 Wimbledon final).

haha love the rant

hoodjem · 08-07-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julesb

They both suck.

Jules is still mad because Monica didn't have a slice.

Rabbit · 08-07-2009, 07:18 PM

No, I agree with Jules. Nobody wins 22 majors, 1 Grand Slam (+ Olympics = Golden Slam) unless their competition really is terrible.

But wait, her competition wasn't terrible. Graf had all the shots and footspeed and courtsense and she could volley.

I'd like to now disagree with Jules.

julesb · 08-07-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit

No, I agree with Jules. Nobody wins 22 majors, 1 Grand Slam (+ Olympics = Golden Slam) unless their competition really is terrible.

But wait, her competition wasn't terrible. Graf had all the shots and footspeed and courtsense and she could volley.

I'd like to now disagree with Jules.

This is why her competition is terrible.

1987-1989 (won 8 of her 22 slams): her 3 biggest rivals were a 30-32 year old women, a 32-34 year old women, and a eventual 1-time only slam winner who wasnt even able to surpass the aforementioned two in the rankings until the former would be 34 and the latter 33.

1993-1996 (won 10 of her 22 slams): the women who had won 7 of the last 8 slams she played was knifed in the back meaning that her 3 main rivals were now a player who would have won only 1 slam without the aforementioned knifing, a player who would have won 0 slams without the aforementined knifing, and a player who was a notorious choker/1 surface specialist/who didnt win her only slam until she was around 30.

During the 8 years she had actual competition- 1985, 1986, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1997, 1998, 1999, she managed a mere 4 slams in all.

BTURNER · 08-07-2009, 09:00 PM

There was absolutely nothing Martina could not do with that slice. It worked on every surface. She used it to lob, drop shot, pass, return serve, approach and rally. All with equal comfort and facility. Steffi was both more steady, consistent and more predictable with her slice. Not that she did not have each of those options in her arsenal, but she did not employ them to full affect.

AndrewD · 08-07-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart392

Ah yes that's another big point I forgot to mention, her slice virtually never missed, it was extremely consistent and rarely let her down.

But it lacked touch and, while it was a highly effective rally ball, it wasn't a good passing shot (largely due to the lack of touch). That isn't to say Navratilova's slice was the best passing shot but she did have a lot more touch on that side and more versatility.

Rabbit · 08-08-2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julesb

This is why her competition is terrible.

1987-1989 (won 8 of her 22 slams): her 3 biggest rivals were a 30-32 year old women, a 32-34 year old women, and a eventual 1-time only slam winner who wasnt even able to surpass the aforementioned two in the rankings until the former would be 34 and the latter 33.

1993-1996 (won 10 of her 22 slams): the women who had won 7 of the last 8 slams she played was knifed in the back meaning that her 3 main rivals were now a player who would have won only 1 slam without the aforementioned knifing, a player who would have won 0 slams without the aforementined knifing, and a player who was a notorious choker/1 surface specialist/who didnt win her only slam until she was around 30.

During the 8 years she had actual competition- 1985, 1986, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1997, 1998, 1999, she managed a mere 4 slams in all.

So then you'd say that Sampras, Federer, Borg, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and any other dominate player was crap? That the only reason they were dominate was that their competition sucked? They weren't dominate because they were so good?

For the life of me, I don't know what it is in Seles that inspires such vitreol from her fans, but it really isn't anything one can reason with or anything that I even care to be around. It's not that I'm a huge Graf fan, but what comes out of folks like you makes any ******* or ******* look positively brilliant.

Lastly, you really shouldn't hijack threads like this, it's bad form.

Back to the OP, I voted equal. At her peak, Navratilova used her slice in a little different way than Graf, but both used it to good effectiveness. Both could hit topspin backhands and routinely did so in practice, they just never felt good enough to use them more than once in a match.

Lionheart392 · 08-08-2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewD

But it lacked touch and, while it was a highly effective rally ball, it wasn't a good passing shot (largely due to the lack of touch). That isn't to say Navratilova's slice was the best passing shot but she did have a lot more touch on that side and more versatility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTURNER

There was absolutely nothing Martina could not do with that slice. It worked on every surface. She used it to lob, drop shot, pass, return serve, approach and rally. All with equal comfort and facility. Steffi was both more steady, consistent and more predictable with her slice. Not that she did not have each of those options in her arsenal, but she did not employ them to full affect.

Yes, both very good points. Keep them coming

dirtballer · 08-08-2009, 06:31 AM

If you're talking about rallying from the baseline, I think Steffi's backhand had a little more penetration. If you're talking about an approach shot, Martina's was better.

hoodjem · 08-08-2009, 06:44 AM

I voted Navratilova becuase I think her slice was more natural. Steffi had a fine slice, but I think it was "learned."

Kind of like the difference between Wilander's slice, which I believe he picked up when trying to figure out how to beat Lendl on hard courts, and Rosewall's slice, which he was hitting in his diapers.

Just MO.

LDVTennis · 08-08-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Jules is still mad because Monica didn't have a slice.

Then, why is Jules always talking about knives?

LDVTennis · 08-08-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewD

But it lacked touch and, while it was a highly effective rally ball, it wasn't a good passing shot (largely due to the lack of touch). That isn't to say Navratilova's slice was the best passing shot but she did have a lot more touch on that side and more versatility.

Lacked touch?

Couldn't pass with it?

Ok, then, what's this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd9_-57tjHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Ajit-NYY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp4FsjUQn8g

and this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RT7Lp8ZTXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLYx5V122U0

and this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYnv1uObV_Y

Lionheart392 · 08-08-2009, 02:41 PM

I love your youtube videos LDV, Steffi would be proud

Actually I'm glad you posted that link, Steffi's slice is much more versatile than I thought...

BTURNER · 08-08-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart392

I love your youtube videos LDV, Steffi would be proud

Actually I'm glad you posted that link, Steffi's slice is much more versatile than I thought...

As I said Steffi has all the shots Martina does with the slice. Martina uses all that variety much more instinctively and far more frequently.

Warriorroger · 08-09-2009, 02:50 AM

Can't believe peole would say the Navratilova slice was more versatile than Graf's. Check the Madison S. Garden clip (vs Sabatini she lost), and see all the variety she has on the slice. Going from outside the court landing inside the court. Navratilova's was like a chop, landing deep and placed, but with little pace compared to the Graf backhand. This is one time where I wish LDV could step in to show some visual aid.

Oops you did, thanks LOL

Rabbit · 08-09-2009, 05:50 AM

It was funny to hear Navratilova comment in one of the clips about how good Graf's touch was on her backhand side given the nature of this thread. And, it was reinforced by Carillo who opined that Graf's backhand was really good on faster surfaces as well.

View Poll Results: Better backhand slice?
Graf	24	70.59%
Navratilova	6	17.65%
Equal!	4	11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

08-07-2009, 03:51 PM	#1
Lionheart392 Professional Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,333	Better slice backhand: Graf or Navratilova? Both very effective, personally I pick Graf because although many people today dismiss her as 'only having a slice backhand' (which isn't true, but anyway...), it was an extremely effective shot that allowed her to construct points and set up perfect forehand winners. It was also deceptive in that it was kept so low that an opponent might mistakenly expect to be able to pounce on it. It's an extremely underrated shot IMO. No doubt Navratilova's was excellent too but for me wasn't quite as impressive. Thoughts?

08-07-2009, 07:18 PM	#7
Rabbit G.O.A.T. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: at the bottom of every hill I come to Posts: 11,150	No, I agree with Jules. Nobody wins 22 majors, 1 Grand Slam (+ Olympics = Golden Slam) unless their competition really is terrible. But wait, her competition wasn't terrible. Graf had all the shots and footspeed and courtsense and she could volley. I'd like to now disagree with Jules. __________________ Wilson Steam 99S poly Luxilon 4G 1.25 @ 45

08-08-2009, 06:44 AM	#14
hoodjem G.O.A.T. Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bierlandt Posts: 10,020	I voted Navratilova becuase I think her slice was more natural. Steffi had a fine slice, but I think it was "learned." Kind of like the difference between Wilander's slice, which I believe he picked up when trying to figure out how to beat Lendl on hard courts, and Rosewall's slice, which he was hitting in his diapers. Just MO. __________________ The smart man thinks he knows a lot; the wise man is aware that he knows little.

08-08-2009, 02:41 PM	#17
Lionheart392 Professional Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,333	I love your youtube videos LDV, Steffi would be proud Actually I'm glad you posted that link, Steffi's slice is much more versatile than I thought... Last edited by Lionheart392 : 08-08-2009 at 02:49 PM.