Jack Kramer died?

darthpwner · 09-13-2009, 01:39 PM

OMG Jack Kramer died yesterday. R.I.P. You were a great champion

Fearsome Forehand · 09-13-2009, 02:23 PM

He led an exemplary and full life. One of the best players of his generation and largely responsible for the formation of the modern pro tennis tour.

You'll never hear anyone say a bad thing about Mr. Kramer.

And, perhaps most astounding of all, he somehow managed to autograph all those rackets without complaint. ;o)

wyutani · 09-13-2009, 02:35 PM

jack kramer? the racquet?

pc1 · 09-13-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

He led an exemplary and full life. One of the best players of his generation and largely responsible for the formation of the modern pro tennis tour.

You'll never hear anyone say a bad thing about Mr. Kramer.

And, perhaps most astounding of all, he somehow managed to autograph all those rackets without complaint. ;o)

Kramer was an excellent player who arguably was the best player in the world from the late 1940's to early 1950's. He didn't have a long career but some like Vic Braden and Frank Sedgman have called him the GOAT. Don Budge called him the best he ever seen and Kramer said the same about Budge.

A lot of people consider Kramer to be the one who popularized the serve and volley game.

Mdubb23 · 09-13-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyutani

jack kramer? the racquet?

Seriously? Try Jack Kramer, the former world #1, who had a racquet named after him.

Rabbit · 09-13-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

You'll never hear anyone say a bad thing about Mr. Kramer.

It's interesting that you say that. I was wondering today what Billie Jean King would say. She didn't care much for Kramer because of his stance on women's tennis. She cared so little for him that she threatened to not play Riggs if Jack Kramer was in the booth. ABC opted for Kramer and then reversed themselves when King threatened a boycott. I don't know if they ever buried the hatchet, but Kramer was one of the few folks King truly disliked (at least at the time).

Likewise, Pancho Gonzalez didn't care much for Kramer either as Kramer low balled Gonzalez in favor of Trabert on his professional tour. Kramer paid Gonzalez about half of what he offered Trabert to join his professional tour after Trabert had won the French Open. Gonzalez roundly spanked Trabert and held that against Kramer for the longest. Gonzalez took it as a personal affront and I think Kramer's continued slight of him is why Gonzalez's chip became bigger and bigger and was a big reason he became a lone wolf or even more of one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Kramer was an excellent player who arguably was the best player in the world from the late 1940's to early 1950's. He didn't have a long career but some like Vic Braden and Frank Sedgman have called him the GOAT. Don Budge called him the best he ever seen and Kramer said the same about Budge.

Kramer was an institution in the sport and largely responsible for not only the term 'percentage tennis' but the tactics employed until recently. John McEnroe credited Kramer and Laver for his game, saying that percentage tennis to him meant getting to the net where he could hit down into the court.

I did find it interesting to hear the when Kramer was at his pinnacle, Bill Tilden came out highly critical of Kramer. He said that there was far too much serve and volley and power involed in Kramer's game and that a certain amount of artistry had been lost. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

jaggy · 09-13-2009, 06:10 PM

I have a pristine Kramer racquet including a press.

Leelord337 · 09-13-2009, 07:14 PM

i remember the tennis channel interview w/jack kramer, talk about a cool guy 'n i also have one of his racquets

Fearsome Forehand · 09-13-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit

It's interesting that you say that. I was wondering today what Billie Jean King would say. She didn't care much for Kramer because of his stance on women's tennis. She cared so little for him that she threatened to not play Riggs if Jack Kramer was in the booth. ABC opted for Kramer and then reversed themselves when King threatened a boycott. I don't know if they ever buried the hatchet, but Kramer was one of the few folks King truly disliked (at least at the time).

Likewise, Pancho Gonzalez didn't care much for Kramer either as Kramer low balled Gonzalez in favor of Trabert on his professional tour. Kramer paid Gonzalez about half of what he offered Trabert to join his professional tour after Trabert had won the French Open. Gonzalez roundly spanked Trabert and held that against Kramer for the longest. Gonzalez took it as a personal affront and I think Kramer's continued slight of him is why Gonzalez's chip became bigger and bigger and was a big reason he became a lone wolf or even more of one.

Kramer was an institution in the sport and largely responsible for not only the term 'percentage tennis' but the tactics employed until recently. John McEnroe credited Kramer and Laver for his game, saying that percentage tennis to him meant getting to the net where he could hit down into the court.

I did find it interesting to hear the when Kramer was at his pinnacle, Bill Tilden came out highly critical of Kramer. He said that there was far too much serve and volley and power involed in Kramer's game and that a certain amount of artistry had been lost. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

Poncho didn't like anyone other than Poncho so he doesn't count. (To call Gonzales an ego-maniac would be an enormous understatement.) ;o)

Sounds like in both cases, their problems with Jack resulted from their belief that Jack didn't open up his wallet for them quite enough. They both had the option of going out, assuming the risk, and starting their own tour. BJ, in fact, did just that. (Jack probably didn't feel obligated to subsidize women's tennis. I can't blame him for that.) Regarding Trabert, Jack felt the newly professional amateur was the bigger draw dollar wise. Let's face it, whatever Kramer paid Gonzales, Poncho would have though it wasn't enough.

Very interesting articles; a different world then.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...83/1/index.htm

http://straightsets.blogs.nytimes.co...ramer-is-dead/

Frank Silbermann · 09-13-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

Poncho didn't like anyone other than Poncho so he doesn't count. (To call Gonzales an ego-maniac would be an enormous understatement.) ;o)

Sounds like in both cases, their dislike of Jack was because they felt Jack didn't open up his wallet for them quite enough. They both had the option of going out, assuming the risk, and starting their own tour. BJ, in fact, did just that. (Jack probably didn't feel obligated to subsidize women's tennis. I can't blame him for that.) Regarding Trabert, Jack felt the newly professional amateur was the bigger draw dollar wise. Let's face it, whatever Kramer paid Gonzales, Poncho would have though it wasn't enough.

Very interesting article; a different world then,

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...83/1/index.htm

Indeed, Kramer was paying Trabert not just for joining the tour, but also for giving up his amateur status. Pancho had already given up his amateur status and had already been paid for that (and blew it gambling). Pancho had nothing to lose by joining the tour; Trabert had a lot to lose.

pc1 · 09-14-2009, 07:32 AM

It would be nice if Kramer still had the records from the old Pro Tours and his family would release them to the public. I wrote to him several years ago concerning this and he never responded. It would be great for tennis history.

urban · 09-14-2009, 08:12 AM

Jack Kramer was maybe the most influential tennis person ever, considering his activities on and off the court, as player, promoter, tournament organizer, commentator, offical etc. He was the new force immediately after WW 2 and made a deep impression at Wim, still holding the record for least games lost in the tournament in 1947. He made the serve and volley game popular (and t-shirts and shorts), modelling his game in the frame of the percentage tennis of his day. I still don't know exactly, when he changed to serve and volley, as amateur or professional. As a pro promoter, Kramer was seen as public enemy by the amateur federations, and he controlled the pro game in the 50s, before Trabert and Sedgman took over around 1962/63. Later at the outset of open tennis, he stood aside the ITF establishment, planning the Grand Prix concept. He turned away from the ITF again, when he built up the ATP, and lost his commentator job at Wim due to the boycott of 1973.
He always had deep love for the game, although in some way he was controversial (see King, see Gonzalez). But: De mortuis nil nisi bene.

pc1 · 09-14-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban

Jack Kramer was maybe the most influential tennis person ever, considering his activities on and off the court, as player, promoter, tournament organizer, commentator, offical etc. He was the new force immediately after WW 2 and made a deep impression at Wim, still holding the record for least games lost in the tournament in 1947. He made the serve and volley game popular (and t-shirts and shorts), modelling his game in the frame of the percentage tennis of his day. I still don't know exactly, when he changed to serve and volley, as amateur or professional. As a pro promoter, Kramer was seen as public enemy by the amateur federations, and he controlled the pro game in the 50s, before Trabert and Sedgman took over around 1962/63. Later at the outset of open tennis, he stood aside the ITF establishment, planning the Grand Prix concept. He turned away from the ITF again, when he built up the ATP, and lost his commentator job at Wim due to the boycott of 1973.
He always had deep love for the game, although in some way he was controversial (see King, see Gonzalez). But: De mortuis nisi bene.

Urban,

Kramer claimed in his book "The Game" that he turned to the serve and volley on first and second serve because it was the best way to handle Bobby Riggs on tour.

The book is fascinating and Kramer had many interesting opinions as you would expect of a man of his strong convictions.

You got the impression that no one was neutral about Kramer. That they either loved him or they hated him.

There is no doubt he was one of the most influential people to ever be involved in tennis.

Borgforever · 09-14-2009, 09:22 AM

I agree more or less with every post in this thread.

I certainly don't agree with a several things Jack Kramer stated and purported during his day as one of the main, vital cogs in the tennis-machine -- but nobody is perfect -- and Jack Kramer had IMO many great talents in tennis and he said and did many wonderful things too. Maybe he became a little too controversial after a while which alienated the ruling powers that be in the amateur world -- maybe prolonging the advent of the open era -- which was under discussion even in the late 50s.

My impression on Kramer is very nuanced but basically I respect him enormously and I think his views are always worthy to at least listen to even if one doesn't entirely agree with them.

There's a wonderful, long interview with him on the 3 DVD set of the WIMBLEDON HISTORY-DVD-set that you can buy for pea-nuts. This magnificent DVD-set is highly recommended to purchase if you're interested in past champions. Jack Kramer offers wonderful insights and memories and we see some wonderful, crisp clips of him during his peak on the court.

These DVD's are a must have and really explore in good detail (but it's not perfect -- for that you need 10 hours + of running time) how the game has developed during the ages. There's a huge section of female tennis-history through all eras -- with footage and interviews with all the giants from Charlotte Cooper/Lambert-Chambers to the Williamses today and so much on the male tennis eras as well.

There's a huge section about Rosewall -- with interviews and lots of wonderful footage from all his Wimby-finals -- and Laver -- with footage from all his Wimby-finals and a huge section on the 1969 Wimby-final with long interviews with Newk and Rod interspersed with great match-highlights -- worth the admission-price alone.

Add that you -- besides a million other great stuff on Tilden, the Great Musketeers, Lenglen, Vines et al -- at least get some wonderful footage on the magical R. F. Doherty and H. L. Doherty and you must get this set. It's a keeper.

Jack Kramer R. I. P. I will miss him and he will never be forgotten...

hoodjem · 09-14-2009, 09:24 AM

Kramer was very . . . opinionated. He rubbed a lot of persons the wrong way.

He did a huge amount for the game in general, and men's professional tennis in particular. The 50 million dollar man owes him a debt of gratitude.

pc1 · 09-15-2009, 11:37 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ml?eref=sircrc

Nice article by Frank Deford.

pmerk34 · 09-15-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Kramer was very . . . opinionated. He rubbed a lot of persons the wrong way.

He did a huge amount for the game in general, and men's professional tennis in particular. The 50 million dollar man owes him a debt of gratitude.

In 1989 the great magazine World Tennis did a mock tournament to determine who was the greatest player of all time. I remember for whomever they had Kramer playing in of the rounds they said " Once he got the power game going it was Katie-bar-the-door"

kimbahpnam · 09-15-2009, 12:41 PM

wow, Jack Kramer and Patrick Swayze on the same day...sad sad

darthpwner · 09-15-2009, 05:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBCUZhwdjcU Last public video of Jack Kramer alive

Kemitak · 09-15-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darthpwner

OMG Jack Kramer died yesterday. R.I.P. You were a great champion

He's dead. He can't read this.

09-13-2009, 02:35 PM	#3
wyutani Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: hong kong Posts: 4,746	jack kramer? the racquet? __________________ Western Grip, Counter-puncher Lefty... Dunlop Maxply Mcenroe (Serve), Dunlop Aerogel 4D 300 Tour (Return)...

09-13-2009, 07:14 PM	#8
Leelord337 Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: univ houston courts Posts: 3,622	i remember the tennis channel interview w/jack kramer, talk about a cool guy 'n i also have one of his racquets __________________ Member of the "Hope Federer will keep Winning Everything for 2013 Club"

09-14-2009, 07:32 AM	#11
pc1 Legend Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 7,146	It would be nice if Kramer still had the records from the old Pro Tours and his family would release them to the public. I wrote to him several years ago concerning this and he never responded. It would be great for tennis history. Last edited by pc1 : 09-16-2009 at 05:49 AM.

09-14-2009, 08:12 AM	#12
urban Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,735	Jack Kramer was maybe the most influential tennis person ever, considering his activities on and off the court, as player, promoter, tournament organizer, commentator, offical etc. He was the new force immediately after WW 2 and made a deep impression at Wim, still holding the record for least games lost in the tournament in 1947. He made the serve and volley game popular (and t-shirts and shorts), modelling his game in the frame of the percentage tennis of his day. I still don't know exactly, when he changed to serve and volley, as amateur or professional. As a pro promoter, Kramer was seen as public enemy by the amateur federations, and he controlled the pro game in the 50s, before Trabert and Sedgman took over around 1962/63. Later at the outset of open tennis, he stood aside the ITF establishment, planning the Grand Prix concept. He turned away from the ITF again, when he built up the ATP, and lost his commentator job at Wim due to the boycott of 1973. He always had deep love for the game, although in some way he was controversial (see King, see Gonzalez). But: De mortuis nil nisi bene. Last edited by urban : 09-14-2009 at 08:42 AM.

09-14-2009, 09:22 AM	#14
Borgforever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,564	I agree more or less with every post in this thread. I certainly don't agree with a several things Jack Kramer stated and purported during his day as one of the main, vital cogs in the tennis-machine -- but nobody is perfect -- and Jack Kramer had IMO many great talents in tennis and he said and did many wonderful things too. Maybe he became a little too controversial after a while which alienated the ruling powers that be in the amateur world -- maybe prolonging the advent of the open era -- which was under discussion even in the late 50s. My impression on Kramer is very nuanced but basically I respect him enormously and I think his views are always worthy to at least listen to even if one doesn't entirely agree with them. There's a wonderful, long interview with him on the 3 DVD set of the WIMBLEDON HISTORY-DVD-set that you can buy for pea-nuts. This magnificent DVD-set is highly recommended to purchase if you're interested in past champions. Jack Kramer offers wonderful insights and memories and we see some wonderful, crisp clips of him during his peak on the court. These DVD's are a must have and really explore in good detail (but it's not perfect -- for that you need 10 hours + of running time) how the game has developed during the ages. There's a huge section of female tennis-history through all eras -- with footage and interviews with all the giants from Charlotte Cooper/Lambert-Chambers to the Williamses today and so much on the male tennis eras as well. There's a huge section about Rosewall -- with interviews and lots of wonderful footage from all his Wimby-finals -- and Laver -- with footage from all his Wimby-finals and a huge section on the 1969 Wimby-final with long interviews with Newk and Rod interspersed with great match-highlights -- worth the admission-price alone. Add that you -- besides a million other great stuff on Tilden, the Great Musketeers, Lenglen, Vines et al -- at least get some wonderful footage on the magical R. F. Doherty and H. L. Doherty and you must get this set. It's a keeper. Jack Kramer R. I. P. I will miss him and he will never be forgotten... Last edited by Borgforever : 09-14-2009 at 09:28 AM.