Is Agassi's 1st serve return overrated?

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Galactico who loves A-rod

agassi did say that wayne arthurs' was the only serve he had difficulty with.

and yet he went 2-0 against him, including a win on grass (Wimbledon).

That's 70 wins against "big servers".

I suppose the OP thinks in all of these wins, these servers hit zero first serves into play.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

Now post your head-to-head list again, maybe it makes more sense the 5. time.

Quick update:

against big servers:

14 wins against sampras (14-20 record)
10-4 record against Becker,
4-3 record against Goran,
6-0 record against Stich
4-3 record against Krajicek
9-2 record against Rusedski
6-2 record against flipper
5-0 record against Dent
4-0 record against Mirnyi
5-1 record against Roddick
1-0 record against Ivo
2-0 record against Wayne Arthurs

70 wins against "big servers"

Originally Posted by drakulie

and yet he went 2-0 against him, including a win on grass (Wimbledon).

That's 70 wins against "big servers".

I suppose the OP thinks in all of these wins, these servers hit zero first serves into play.

I'm not talking about h2h, for example, federer has a winning record over karlovic, but karlovic's serve gives him trouble.

[dropshot winner]

Originally Posted by drakulie

yes it is. When you have arguably the greatest server in the history of the game, basically hitting two first serves against him, because as he has said himself (his second would get creamed), and yet, AA was still able to manage 14 wins, that in itself says a lot.

secondly, name me one player who dominates big servers on the big servers first serve?

You are clueless.

You keep mixing all kind of facts together. Agassi beat Sampras 14 times because he has amazing groundstrokes, can take the ball as early as anyone and returns very agressively.

It doesn't change the fact that Agassi lost a lot of close games because he had a too agressive approach on the 1st serve return, not giving himself enough time to react and lacking reach to put some of the wide serves back.

No one has ever regularly "dominated big servers on the big servers first serve", that just doesn't happen regularly.

It's obvious, just by watching, that Murray gets back more big 1st serves than Agassi did.

Now it's very difficult to find the right balance between quantity and quality on the return.
Agassi did it extremly well on the 2nd serve return, Nalbandian is also up there, but guys like Murray or peak Federer did it better on 1st serves.

Anyway, that was probably too much text for a troll like you. How old are you btw? For your sake I hope you haven't passed 10, otherwise all hope is lost.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

It doesn't change the fact that Agassi lost a lot of close games because he had a too agressive approach on the 1st serve return, not giving himself enough time to react and lacking reach to put some of the wide serves back.

It's obvious, just by watching, that Murray gets back more big 1st serves than Agassi did.

Please prove both of these statements.

Thanks in advance.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Galactico who loves A-rod

I'm not talking about h2h, for example, federer has a winning record over karlovic, but karlovic's serve gives him trouble.

To bet any player, one has to win points off their serve. There is no way around it. You don't win points off their serve, you lose.

This concept seems to be getting away from the OP.

[dropshot winner]

Originally Posted by drakulie

Please prove both of these statements.

Thanks in advance.

I gave you one example with the Karlovic match, Murray usually wins 10% more points on 1st serve return against the vastly improved Karlovic than Agassi did against newbie-Karlovic in 2005.

There are a lot of other examples, unfortunately there aren't many players that have played both Agassi and Murray at a similiar level. Maybe Roddick, but he was a very different player a few years back.

But if you actually watched Agassi and Murray play you would've noticed it too. Murray and Agassi have very different strategies on return, Agassi focusses on getting the upperhand as fast as possible while Murray wants to play as many points as possible. A combination of that would be the perfect returner.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

You keep mixing all kind of facts together. Agassi beat Sampras 14 times because he has amazing groundstrokes, can take the ball as early as anyone and returns very agressively.

It doesn't change the fact that Agassi lost a lot of close games because he had a too agressive approach on the 1st serve return, not giving himself enough time to react and lacking reach to put some of the wide serves back.

No one has ever regularly "dominated big servers on the big servers first serve", that just doesn't happen regularly.

It's obvious, just by watching, that Murray gets back more big 1st serves than Agassi did.

Now it's very difficult to find the right balance between quantity and quality on the return.
Agassi did it extremly well on the 2nd serve return, Nalbandian is also up there, but guys like Murray or peak Federer did it better on 1st serves.

Anyway, that was probably too much text for a troll like you. How old are you btw? For your sake I hope you haven't passed 10, otherwise all hope is lost.

Sampras beat Agassi more than the other big servers because he had alot more game to backup his tremendous serve. The rest of the big servers got exposed pretty badly by Agassi.



I certainly hope that is something you can understand.

[dropshot winner]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Sampras beat Agassi more than the other big servers because he had alot more game to backup his tremendous serve. The rest of the big servers got exposed pretty badly by Agassi.


I certainly hope that is something you can understand.

Sampras had a better 2nd serve than all the other player (except Goran on a good day), and was mentally very strong, but you're right that Sampras was able to back up his game very effectively.

Agassi exposed most of the big servers with his 2nd serve return, his 1st serve return was also good, but it wasn't nearly as devastating as his 2nd serve return. He did hit very impressive returns of 1st serves, but it wasn't the kind of constant pressure Murray applies.

If he had had that dimension he would've won a lot more.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

Sampras had a better 2nd serve than all the other player (except Goran on a good day), and was mentally very strong, but you're right that Sampras was able to back up his game very effectively.

Agassi exposed most of the big servers with his 2nd serve return, his 1st serve return was also good, but it wasn't nearly as effective of weapon as his 2nd serve return.

I'm pretty sure that's the case with everyone except maybe Federer.

[dropshot winner]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

I'm pretty sure that's the case with everyone except maybe Federer.

In case you misunderstood me, I didn't mean that Agassi won less % of points when returning 1st serves, compared to 2nd serve. Because that's nearly always the case (even for Federer, Murray).

It's just that you won't find a player that returns 2nd serves better than Agassi, but you'll find a few that are able to return 1st serves more effectively.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

In case you misunderstood me, I didn't mean that Agassi won less % of points when returning 1st serves, compared to 2nd serve. Because that's nearly always the case (even for Federer, Murray).

It's just that you won't find a player that returns 2nd serves better than Agassi, but you'll find a few that are able to return 1st serves more effectively.

I seriously doubt that. When you are judging the return based on just sheer quality, Agassi's 1st serve return is the best. Murray might (although I really doubt it) have a better 1st serve return game, which is totally different. However based on just the quality of the 1st serve, Agassi's is unparalleled.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

I gave you one example with the Karlovic match, Murray usually wins 10% more points on 1st serve return against the vastly improved Karlovic than Agassi did against newbie-Karlovic in 2005.

the first and only time AA played Ivo, he won 21% of first serves, and 55% of first serves.

Murray won 17% of first serves, and 40 % of second serves.

How is less, 10% more?? Please explain?

Originally Posted by dropshot winner

Agassi exposed most of the big servers with his 2nd serve return, his 1st serve return was also good, but it wasn't nearly as devastating as his 2nd serve return.

Being serious,,,,,, do you play tennis?? have you ever heard of the phrase, "you're only as good as your second serve"???

Agassi exposed everyone on their second serves, EVERYONE, as do most people who play tennis. They expose their opponents second serve. Reason is, everyone's second serve is usually not their weapon. It's a safety shot to start the point, without being put into too much of a defensive situation from the get go.

Players had to change their serve strategy against Agassi. Even the best servers. That's how damn good he was.

Like I said before, and you continue to confirm it>>> you are clueless.

[dropshot winner]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

I seriously doubt that. When you are judging the return based on just sheer quality, Agassi's 1st serve return is the best. Murray might (although I really doubt it) have a better 1st serve return game, which is totally different. However based on just the quality of the 1st serve, Agassi's is unparalleled.

A good Agassi 1st serve return is definately better than a good Murray 1st serve return.
Agassi often hit a return winner and then got aced or service winner'd twice, Murray or 05 Federer OTOH get nearly every serve back, which is very effective if you can outplay everyone from the baseline.

[KrossKourt]

I think strawberry pop tarts are overrated. But its still good.

So in essence. It doesn't matter if agassi's first serve return game is overrated or not. Its still damn good and it produced results throughout his career.

The same result as eating strawberry pop tarts. By the time you finish eating it. It is still damn good.

Unfortunately I can't eat this post.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by KrossKourt

I think strawberry pop tarts are overrated. But its still good.

So in essence. It doesn't matter if agassi's first serve return game is overrated or not. Its still damn good and it produced results throughout his career.

The same result as eating strawberry pop tarts. By the time you finish eating it. It is still damn good.

Unfortunately I can't eat this post.

ahahahahahahahhah

[Lejanius]

I don't think Agassi's serve return was overrated at all.

the OP's original point (as I understand it) is that despite his great return Agassi was aced a lot.

which makes a lot of sense. Agassi stood inside the baseline often which opens up the angles for aces. In essence Agassi gambled a lot against big servers forcing them to make a decision to try and ace him or hit a regular serve and let him tee up on it.

So he was aced a lot but hit a lot of return winners. It is a gamble and the style he played. So it makes perfect sense that he would have given up a lot of aces.

I think the OP is confusing the number of aces he gave up as a flaw in his game when in reality Agassi wasn't overly tall and he stood close to the baseline giving up certain angles to gain an advantage in the return game.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Lejanius

Agassi stood inside the baseline often which opens up the angles for aces.

actually standing inside or near the baseline takes away angles.

However, one has way less time to react.

[EtePras]

Agassi's 1st serve return is definitely overrated, and easily the worst service return in history. He spent how many years holding the record for getting aced the most times in a match? If it were that easy, Nadal would just get the record for most clay court losses in a season and be pronounced the best clay player ever.

[KrossKourt]

I wonder if andre agassi ate pop tarts