How to develop a service motion/toss that is not a giveaway of serve direction

sgrv · 10-28-2009, 10:30 AM

I have been self-learning tennis for an year now. I can now hit both 1st and 2nd serves consistently, main options being slice, topspin and kick serve. Still developing a consistent flat serve.

One area for improvement is for me to serve in such a way that my toss does not indicate to the opponent where the serve will go. Right now, my toss is a very easy giveaway of my intention. Toss on the side => slice. Overhead => topspin. Overhead and on side => Kicker

How should I approach this issue?

mikeler · 10-28-2009, 11:03 AM

Either toss it in the same position every single time or recognize that you are giving away the type of serve to your opponent but make sure you can mix up the direction on all your serves regardless of where the toss is.

moroni · 10-28-2009, 11:06 AM

well, different serves require different contact points so if you do not want to different tosses you'll have to adjust stance

a_2c+ · 10-28-2009, 11:12 AM

talk to Mr. Sampras.

I'm pretty sure he'll give you an answer.

mikeler · 10-28-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_2c+

talk to Mr. Sampras.

I'm pretty sure he'll give you an answer.

Sampras and Federer are great examples of servers that could hit any serve off of 1 toss.

tricky · 10-28-2009, 11:19 AM

A true kicker is going to require a different toss (even Sampras.) For everything else, work on hitting the ball at the same point using the clock metaphor. Usually if you visualize the clock face during the windup, you can better hide it.

Aiming at the ball with your colllarbone can aid in pronation. This also gives you finer control of the angle of your service arm, which enables you to do more stuff with the same toss as well as not tip off the opposite server with your trunk position.

Fedace · 10-28-2009, 11:20 AM

Copy Pete Sampras..

SystemicAnomaly · 10-28-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_2c+

talk to Mr. Sampras.

I'm pretty sure he'll give you an answer.

I'm fairly certain that Sampras actually had 2 different tosses. (Think I also recall a quote from him stating this). He would pretty much hit anything off these 2 tosses.

mikeler · 10-28-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

I'm fairly certain that Sampras actually had 2 different tosses. (Think I also recall a quote from him stating this). He would pretty much hit anything off these 2 tosses.

It's been a while since I've seen Sampras play. OK, I'll retract my statement. I've seen Fed enough to say his toss is pretty much the same every time.

LuckyR · 10-28-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgrv

I have been self-learning tennis for an year now. I can now hit both 1st and 2nd serves consistently, main options being slice, topspin and kick serve. Still developing a consistent flat serve.

One area for improvement is for me to serve in such a way that my toss does not indicate to the opponent where the serve will go. Right now, my toss is a very easy giveaway of my intention. Toss on the side => slice. Overhead => topspin. Overhead and on side => Kicker

How should I approach this issue?

To be honest, at one year in, my guess is there are many, many areas of your game that will win you more points if improved, than this area.

In D Zone · 10-28-2009, 12:15 PM

If I were you - I would work on improving the pace and placement of your serve.

Changing what you already have can mess you up.

As LuckyR pointed out work on other areas of your game. Develop strategy, work on attacking the shot after your serve is returned, etc....

In D Zone · 10-28-2009, 12:18 PM

I've played guys who are higher level - with just sticking to 2 types of serves. Yes, they stuck with the service motion /toss. But watch out - the ball coming at you is fast and has heavy spins.

They have excellent control and placement on their serve - forcing you to play into their strategy. Finish you off in one two punch.

tennisdad65 · 10-28-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedace

Copy Pete Sampras..

here are 3 videos of Pete serving.

twist serve: seems like the toss is at 11 around baseline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI

topspin serve: seems like the toss is at 12 and a bit into the court:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf7uwvybBOc

flat serve: seems like the toss is at 12:30 and well into the court:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

maybe its only a myth on these boards that Pete had the same toss for everything?

Fedace · 10-28-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisdad65

here are 3 videos of Pete serving.

twist serve: seems like the toss is at 11 around baseline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI

topspin serve: seems like the toss is at 12 and a bit into the court:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf7uwvybBOc

flat serve: seems like the toss is at 12:30 and well into the court:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

maybe its only a myth on these boards that Pete had the same toss for everything?

Not a myth. You can't read it. toss is same or slightly different but in a different position every time

Geezer Guy · 10-28-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgrv

... One area for improvement is for me to serve in such a way that my toss does not indicate to the opponent where the serve will go. Right now, my toss is a very easy giveaway of my intention. Toss on the side => slice. Overhead => topspin. Overhead and on side => Kicker

How should I approach this issue?

Not trying to nit-pick with you, but what you said doesn't really add up. True, your toss may indicate the spin you're putting on the ball, but that does NOT indicate "where the serve will go". You can hit slice, topspin or kicker to ANY of the three basic service locations - and you should. You shouldn't always hit your slice wide to the deuce court and your kicker wide to the ad court. Mix it up. They may know a topspin serve is coming, for instance, but they needn't know where.

rk_sports · 10-28-2009, 03:25 PM

quoting FiveO from another thread..

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiveO

... Sampras serve practice is legendary in that his coach could pick serve type and direction for Pete after the toss and Pete would be able to hit it via swing path and contact point. Path and contact are what allows these serves to change direction and spin w/o giving it away by toss placement.....

this is interesting and not sure how you can practice this w/o a coach...

tricky · 10-28-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

this is interesting and not sure how you can practice this w/o a coach...

And remember -- coach would call out the direction of the serve after the ball was already tossed. This is one level above hitting various kinds of serves from the same toss. Sampras would actually time his pronation phase in order to execute Landsorp's (I think it was Landsorp) drill. When he wanted to spike down the T, he would slightly delay that pronation.

Probably goes without saying, but you need to have an advanced serve before you can pull that off.

sgrv · 10-28-2009, 03:49 PM

Interesting to see the responses. Maybe I should have rephrased my question to indicate, how can I make my server more effective? There are couple of levers including

1. Adding disguise - which I asked
2. Pace & Spin
3. Placement

Feel free to provide tips for (2) and (3). There are definitely obvious improvements/tweaks that would help my game which is not too mature to start with. What low-hanging fruits should I attempt in the short term?

tricky · 10-28-2009, 03:51 PM

BTW, are you a platform or pinpoint guy?

sgrv · 10-28-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricky

BTW, are you a platform or pinpoint guy?

I don't understand what the above terms mean in this context, can you clarify?

10-28-2009, 10:30 AM	#1
sgrv New User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 86	How to develop a service motion/toss that is not a giveaway of serve direction I have been self-learning tennis for an year now. I can now hit both 1st and 2nd serves consistently, main options being slice, topspin and kick serve. Still developing a consistent flat serve. One area for improvement is for me to serve in such a way that my toss does not indicate to the opponent where the serve will go. Right now, my toss is a very easy giveaway of my intention. Toss on the side => slice. Overhead => topspin. Overhead and on side => Kicker How should I approach this issue? __________________ Babolat APDC Plus, 44 lbs, Semi-Western FH grip

10-28-2009, 11:12 AM	#4
a_2c+ Rookie Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UCSB Posts: 240	talk to Mr. Sampras. I'm pretty sure he'll give you an answer. __________________ Wilson N6.1 95 16x18. Multiply that by three.

10-28-2009, 11:19 AM	#6
tricky Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,311	A true kicker is going to require a different toss (even Sampras.) For everything else, work on hitting the ball at the same point using the clock metaphor. Usually if you visualize the clock face during the windup, you can better hide it. Aiming at the ball with your colllarbone can aid in pronation. This also gives you finer control of the angle of your service arm, which enables you to do more stuff with the same toss as well as not tip off the opposite server with your trunk position. __________________ Directory of Tennis Warehouse Clubs (courtesy of Mountain Ghost) http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=179307 Last edited by tricky : 10-28-2009 at 11:21 AM.

10-28-2009, 12:15 PM	#11
In D Zone Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,725	If I were you - I would work on improving the pace and placement of your serve. Changing what you already have can mess you up. As LuckyR pointed out work on other areas of your game. Develop strategy, work on attacking the shot after your serve is returned, etc.... __________________ In D ZonE >>> WorD uP! <<< RQIS 1 Tour 95 and XL ; Solinco TB

10-28-2009, 12:18 PM	#12
In D Zone Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,725	I've played guys who are higher level - with just sticking to 2 types of serves. Yes, they stuck with the service motion /toss. But watch out - the ball coming at you is fast and has heavy spins. They have excellent control and placement on their serve - forcing you to play into their strategy. Finish you off in one two punch. __________________ In D ZonE >>> WorD uP! <<< RQIS 1 Tour 95 and XL ; Solinco TB