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#61 |
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Legend
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bierlandt
Posts: 9,960
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Most impressive:
http://www.bjornhellberg.se/
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The smart man thinks he knows a lot; the wise man is aware that he knows little. |
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#62 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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#63 | ||
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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Quote:
Quote:
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#64 |
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Legend
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,145
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#65 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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Quote:
It's not that I think he really is in a three-way tie with Borg and Vilas. I don't. But Connors' record in '77 is stronger than I always assumed it was, just looking at the Slams. And that's true in general of Jimmy's career. If I had to pick one sujbect on which this board has changed my mind the most, it's his career and his skill: he's stronger than I'd ever given him credit for. |
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#66 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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Here is SgtJohn's list of majors per year: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...05#post3098705
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#67 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,145
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Quote:
Connors was an exceptional strong player. He was unlucky in that his played at the same time as a Borg who could match him easily from the baseline and had some skills Connors didn't have, like a huge serve. Connors just hit the ball so perfectly. He used his entire body to get great pace on the ball without that much strain to his arms. I wonder if this was what led to his hip replacement. And people forget what a great defensive player he was and who a great lob he had. He also had excellent footwork and speed. I always enjoyed the way Connors played. He could spoil it sometimes for me with the way he acted at time but he was a beautiful groundstroker. I would have loved to see him trade groundies with Don Budge. I think from what I've read and some of the video I've seen of Budge that they were somewhat similar groundstrokers. Some have also compared Connors to Ken Rosewall. Last edited by pc1 : 11-02-2009 at 12:35 PM. |
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#68 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,564
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Okey my friends, it was not the easiest to translate to flowing English but I think I did about a... 90% correct translation, give or take a few percent.
Hope you enjoy -- here goes Björn Hellberg from his yearly tennis-book about all things tennis during the year 1976 (Hellberg wrote yearly books on tennis for many years like Barrett in a way). BJÖRN HELLBERG, LAHOLM, SWEDEN, JANUARY 1977: Quote:
Last edited by Borgforever : 11-02-2009 at 02:20 PM. |
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#69 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,564
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I will add a some rare quotes about Borg's injuries in the next post...
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#70 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 5,270
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Quote:
My other reaction would be to refer to SgtJohn's point that Philadelphia was one of the better attended events that year and Connors beat Borg there. He rates it as one of the 'adjusted majors'. I tend to agree with him. The suggestion that Connors was rated above Borg solely due to the h2h is silly. |
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#71 |
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Rookie
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TRUE WORLD NO. 1
(BY YEAR) 1972—Smith 1973—Nastase 1974—Connors 1975—Ashe 1976—Connors/Borg 1977—Borg/Vilas 1978—Borg 1979—Borg 1980—Borg(5) 1981—McEnroe 1982—Connors(4) 1983—McEnroe/Wilander 1984—McEnroe(3) 1985—Rosz/Lendl 1986—Rosz 1987—Rosz 1988—Rosz 1989—Rosz 1990—Rosz 1991—Rosz 1992—Rosz 1993—Rosz 1994—Rosz 1995—Rosz 1996—Rosz 1997—Rosz 1998—Rosz 1999—Rosz 2000—Rosz 2001—Rosz 2002—Rosz 2003—Rosz 2004—Rosz 2005—Rosz 2006—Rosz 2007—Rosz 2008—Rosz 2009—Rosz (24) http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...=294229&page=4
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#72 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,145
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Quote:
Do you rank it above the 1973 weaken Wimbledon? Wimbledon is still Wimbledon and was still more prestigious than the 1971 Tennis Champions Classic. I think it's pretty clear the Year End Masters was basically a major but to rank the Philadelphia tournament and some other tournaments as an adjusted major to me is a (no pun intended) major problem. I mean where does it end? Is the Federer win over Soderling not as important because he didn't beat Rafa? I think it is just as important but I'm purposely using this as an absurd example to show how far it can go. My point is that we have to be careful when we do things like this. I think you can take the strength and prestige of a tournament in that particular year and take it into account for the rankings and also for the player's career but a major is a major. Money aside, I think Laver would have preferred to have the weakened 1973 Wimbledon in his career resume than the 1971 Tennis Champions Classic. At least I would guess he would. Laver's stated before that he would have loved to come back more for the glory than the money. Last edited by pc1 : 11-02-2009 at 04:08 PM. |
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#73 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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Quote:
Okay, the first thing that jumps out in Hellberg's article is that he defines the tennis season as beginning October 1. Now I haven't spent a lot of time researching such things, but where does this come from? I have no idea. Anyone know? It's strange because it means that Hellberg is not including events that took place in the last three months of 1976 as belonging to 1976. Presumably they belong to 1977 in his definition. And the last three months of 1975 go to the 1976 season. So this shows that the whole question of how the season relates to the calendar year is even more complex. And if Hellberg is defining his year from October to October, I might agree with him that Borg is #1. I don't know -- the whole race for #1 has to be literally re-calculated. Offhand I don't know all the small tournaments that have to be shifted. We do know to include Borg's Davis Cup wins and his Masters runner-up showing, so like I said, that might push him over the top. I'd still be reluctant to do it based on his H2H with Connors -- but I respect Hellberg's opinion that H2H should not be such an important criteria. It is for me, and for many others (including experts). Finally there's Hellberg's point about Borg doing better against Nastase and Tanner than Connors did. That's fine, but when he gets into this, he's essentially getting into H2H's, so there's only so much emphasis that can go to Borg's victories over other men before you have to return to Borg's H2H against Connors. I see where he's coming from, I just think it's a limited argument -- and it runs from October to October so it's not really what Hoodjem is talking about. So now I wonder, Borgforever, do you know how Hellberg defines the 1983 season? That Masters tournament in January 1984 is crucial, and if Hellberg is not including it then McEnroe has a weaker argument. |
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#74 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 5,270
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Quote:
Borg did win Dallas, but Jimmy wasn't there and he wasn't obligated to be there. As for Wimbledon 1973, I would definitely rate it behind events like Dallas and Masters of the same year. But it's important to explain why - SgtJohn is not looking to determine which events were more prestigious. Rather he is looking at the results most demonstrative of who the best, most successful players were. Ultimately that is all that matters. |
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#75 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,564
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I have little time now so I wish I could translate more -- Hellberg's ranking argument for other years for instance.
Short personal reaction. Hellberg is a very level-headed man. One of the calmest and sound persons one could ever come across. Brilliant. Like Borg on red clay. I will answer the October-question tomorrow krosero... CyB -- don't reduce this to a flawed, knee-jerk interpretation like "Swedes are behind Swedes". Hellberg clearly states that a Swede, Sylvén, supports Connors-case in this issue and Swedes rarely believe they are better than anyone until it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Hellberg has Alexander Karelin as the GOAT of all athletes in recorded 2000-year-history, since the Greeks. Hellberg has Laver above Borg -- and he saw both at their blinding best. A Swede backing a Swede? Thanks man. I thought better of you. The clincher for me is Borg's victory at Boston when Björn blasted everybody and Jimbo sunk against Ramirez, which he also did when Borg won the DC-final practically single-handed -- but the the strongest argument for me is the Wimby-confrontations: First. Borg lost serve five times in 21 sets -- twice in the final. He wasn't even on the betting board before the tourney. Tanner gave 7-1 as a winner. People laughed at Borg. Until his started to scorch the sun-baked grass with thunder serve and his most fierce killer instinct. Now the main point. Jimbo, in the world championships, couldn't handle Tanner nuclear serve and splendid overall form in combo. The greatest returner in the game didn't manage to hold serve enough or even touch Roscoe's missiles and went out in humiliating fashion by a player on fire. Tanner was favorite and he had the game-style that gave Borg most trouble. Mac had studied Tanner's style against Borg and realized that Björn hated quick, explosive points with lots of waiting in between. The trickster style. Anyhoo -- Tanner comes out like against Connors. The temp is around 40 degrees celsius, around, i don't know 90s-100s F, or something and the grass fits Roscoe's game like a silk glove. But Borg is a virtual armor-piercing Fortress moving like lightning. And bombing his serve with almost as much power but more consistently than even an on fire Tanner does. If Tanner could crush Jimbo -- then on paper Borg would be even more so. When they reach 4-all in two of the sets Borg murders his game at love like he just did all through the match to 5-4 and then pretty much screams four deadly returns bullseye in the corners past a stunned Tanner. Just when he needed it. At the biggest stage in the world. The Championships. It was his trademark. He dealed with Tanner with better play than Jimbo did. He returned Roscoe better. Remember in the 1979-final that went to five sets -- well, Tanner broke Borg ONLY ONCE in five sets, and his returns while not brilliant was darn good that year -- and Borg managed to break Roscoe a whopping four times. And who was supposed to possess the serve as the greatest weapon in tennis? Tanner, while being on fire, having the momentum, the court advantage, the confidence of his supreme triumph against a peak Jimbo under his belt, was humiliated without even breaking Borg once and not getting even a set. Then of course comes the amazing Nastase blowout-final in the sauna... Borg did what Connors couldn't -- handle Tanner and Nastase -- which Jimbo couldn't -- even at the world championships at tennis... Then Borg's recovery and brave, close final against Jimbo at USO was just the icing on the cake. As well as the WCT-finals at Dallas -- which -- according to Hellberg better run than any tourney, save Wimby. Absolutely magnificent arena, crowd, smooth, great tennis, incredible atmosphere, all players loved it, big money -- WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP TENNIS it was called and it fought for major-status. The crazy thing was that Borg would continue to be invincible on grass and clay for four years straight basically. And the nuttiest thing is that this Ice Cold Ghost Killah was only 20 when he raised the golden Wimby-trophy for the first time in his life... Last edited by Borgforever : 11-02-2009 at 05:07 PM. |
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#76 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,643
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Quote:
With Borg and Connors in '76, I'm still having trouble seeing even a tie. Yes, Borg has Wimbledon and the Dallas WCT. But Connors with the USO and Philadelphia stacks up against that. Meanwhile in tournament totals, Connors leads Borg by 12 to 6 (a considerably larger margin than Wilander has over McEnroe in 1983). How does such a record as Connors had in '76 come to be seen as #2 caliber? And #2 to a man with 6 titles -- who was defeated every time the two men met? Borg has a strong record that year, but Connors' record is very tough to match, much less overcome. What I've been trying to get at with H2H is some underlying issues of skill and confidence. I have always understood that Borg and Wilander had their decisive breakthroughs, defeating their main rivals, in 1977 and 1988. It's new to me to hear that they actually reached the top earlier, and I have trouble giving it to them merely on stats in bulk. IMO both men still had some way to go before -- some important issues to resolve -- before they reached a place unquestionably at the top of the sport. I don't insist, incidentally, that to be #1 you always must meet and defeat your main rival. He might be injured or on sabbatical, semi-retired, or just having a poor year, losing early before even meeting you in imporant finals. A lot of things can happen, and then you can step in and legitimately be #1. Nothing here is a rigid rule. But when your rival is there and you meet him, the H2H says a lot about whether you're physically and mentally ready to be #1. |
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#77 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,564
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The H2H doesn't matter much in this particular case for these reasons:
* Borg won the biggest. Connors was in the field and sunk. And Borg's triumph-style and stats are still unsurpassed. A more glorious triumph at the established biggest stage in the world. Connors lost to the man Borg crushed. * Jimbo never met the finest form Borg and after Wimby they were very close while Borg's form was down -- thereafter Borg dominated their H2H in a unique manner. * Federer's H2H against Rafa during some of his peak years look like Borg Connors in 1976 but there's no disputing that Roger was No. 1 and won the biggest tourneys and beat the other guys that took out Rafa. There's a lot of nuance... |
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#78 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Oct 2008
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The ATP Players voted Borg as No. 1 for 1976 besides TENNIS DE FRANCE, I guess, plus several other authorities -- not to mention the world's accumulated all-sports-covering respected journalists...
In hindsight -- the Jimbo for No. 1 in 1976 seems to be the minority view in this case, all things considered when it comes to opinions expressed in this case... |
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#79 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 5,270
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Quote:
This does not mean that I dismiss the point of view and thus not even consider it in depth. Rather, the skepticism immediately arises and is difficult to shake off. This is my reaction. It is not necessarily a fair one, but it does not necessarily mean that it will dominate my ultimate review of the points raised. I will still calmly and carefully analyze the statement and attempt to not let my skepticism interfere too much. I find the comments posted to be somewhat thin and reductive of the pro-Connors position (that it all comes down to h2h, which is not the only point to be made for Connors). This paragraph: "People in the ”Connors-camp” base their evaluation basically on the great tournament-winning consistency of the American and on the fact that he conquered Borg in every single of their four battles during this time-period (plus one exxo making it 5-0 in H2Hs during this time)." It is not very well thought-out and creates a false dichotomy that the debate is solely between two sides (suggesting that the truth lies in one of the two camps). The comment confirms that my initial reaction of skepticism was not completely foolish, as a clear sign of bias is to create a false dichotomy, but that points to the writer of that piece specifically (rather than a population, so don't get me wrong there). I also did not ignore that there are Swedes who favoured Connors. I am aware of this and I never said that Swedes are all biased for Borg. That being said, Swedes are more likely to be biased for Borg, and that heightens my skepticism but does not cement or finalize my point of view about the opinion raised. Last edited by CyBorg : 11-02-2009 at 05:45 PM. |
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#80 | |
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Legend
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 5,270
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Quote:
I would imagine that Jimmy was not terribly well-liked at the time by most players. That being said, having read your arguments for Borg as the #1 in 1976 I have begun to feel that he was closer to Connors than I'd initially assumed. So I think that your argumentation has been very sound and always is. However I'm not a big fan of the piece you've posted. I tend to be very critical of journalistic pieces in general and tend to shoot down any appeals to opinion pieces. I do not believe that opinion pieces, in themselves, do much to strengthen points of view. Only facts can. |
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