Frank Deford: "Graf most Overrated Tennis Player Ever"

[julesb]

The famous and highly espected Tennis historian Frank Deford 8 years ago picked Steffi Graf as the most overrated tennis player ever:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3423/index.htm

Over RATED
Steffi Graf

Steffi Graf had a terrific career, and since she won an Olympic gold medal as well as the Grand Slam in 1988, that year may well be the most distinguished any tennis player has ever enjoyed. So it has become fashionable to rate Graf the best women's player ever, and that is ridiculous. Most Grafites are in thrall to her 22 Grand Slam singles titles, a figure that exceeds what Helen Wills Moody, Martina Navratilova or Chris Evert rang up. (Although that total ranks behind Margaret Court's 24, almost half Court's wins came in the Australian Championships, at a time when few of the best players went Down Under.)

Whereas Court, Navratilova and Evert had stiff competition—Martina and Chrissie went virtually head-to-head—Graf caught an easy wave. For much of her career the best she had to contend with was Arantxa S�nchez-Vicario, a game little terrier, and Gabriela Sabatini, a frail competitor. Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's r�sum� the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Graf had won eight of the previous nine Grand Slam titles when Seles surfaced as a champion in 1990. For the next three years, until she was stabbed by a deranged Graf fan, Seles won eight Grand Slam titles while Graf won two. As soon as Seles was eliminated as competition, Graf started winning the big titles again. Was Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in the heart of her career.

[Fedfan1234]

I think you should change well respected historian into something less flattering, like the worlds most overrated historian.
His opinion has probably something to do with her not being from the good old USA. Some Americans are this way, if she was an American the story would be completely different. He is just saying if Seles was still around. Well she wasn't! Don't count slams she did not win. Don't forget the head to head is 10-5 in favor of Graf, so not very fair to just add a couple for Seles. An old Graf also defeated Williams multiple times before she retired. I think it was 1-1 vs Serena and 3-2 vs Venus in head to heads. Hingis 7-2 head to head. Thus she can't be that bad. not to mention Davenport 8-6, Capriati 10-1. If you have to come up with arguments like weak era, I would say you are a weak historian and not much of a tennis fan.

[NonP]

Seles' stabbing and subsequent hiatus from the game is a valid point to make regarding Graf's competition, but there's this other factor called peak play level, and there are many pros and fans who believe that Graf's peak level was higher than either Martina's or Chrissie's. Mind you, Navratilova is the female GOAT in my book, but simply harping on Steffi's competition (or lack thereof) ain't gonna knock her off the pedestal.

[julesb]

Originally Posted by NonP

Seles' stabbing and subsequent hiatus from the game is a valid point to make regarding Graf's competition, but there's this other factor called peak play level, and there are many pros and fans who believe that Graf's peak level was higher than either Martina's or Chrissie's. Mind you, Navratilova is the female GOAT in my book, but simply harping on Steffi's competition (or lack thereof) ain't gonna knock her off the pedestal.

Graf's peak play was probably better than Evert's but not Martina's. Martina in 1983-1984 lost only 3 matches. Graf in 1988-1989 lost 5 matches. Martina past her prime at ages 29 and 30 in 1986-1987 dominated prime Graf, reducing her to winning ony 1 slam vs Martina's 4 and crushing her in the finals of Wimbledon and the U.S Open.

[NonP]

julesb, I must disagree that Graf was in her "prime" in '86-'87. She was only 17-18 years old then, for Pete's sake. I can't think of any player (female or male), however precious, who hits her prime so early, if not prematurely. Anyway I do think Martina is the GOAT. Just don't think the competition factor alone disqualifies Graf from the top plume.

[julesb]

Originally Posted by NonP

julesb, I must disagree that Graf was in her "prime" in '86-'87. She was only 17-18 years old then, for Pete's sake. I can't think of any player (female or male), however precious, who hits her prime so early, if not prematurely.

OK in that case I guess Seles wasnt even in her prime when she dominated womens tennis over a prime Graf in 1991 and 1992 winning 6 out of 8 slams. After all she was only 17 and 18 those two years too.

[Lionheart392]

Are you ever going to let this go Jules? Frank Deford probably never even watched Graf play a single match in his life. He talks about numbers but nothing about her game.

[julesb]

Originally Posted by Lionheart392

Are you ever going to let this go Jules? Frank Deford probably never even watched Graf play a single match in his life. He talks about numbers but nothing about her game.

Frank Deford wrote a famous and top selling biography on Bill Tilden. He covered tennis for Sport Illustrated since the early 1960s for nearly three decades. He is a highly respected authority of the sport and if you think he hasnt watched Graf play many times you are out to lunch. In the late 80s when Graf was on the rise he covered her many times and spoke somewhat highly of her back then.

[NonP]

Actually, julesb, I'd say yeah. Plus the Martina-Seles comparison doesn't hold water. Just look at the age differential in each case.

[MichaelChang]

Graf is surely one of the most achieved female tennis player. For some so-called "historian" or rather who-the-hell-cares artical writer to call Graf the most overrated, is just plain ridiculous. The question is WHO ARE YOU to write her off?

[julesb]

Originally Posted by NonP

Actually, julesb, I'd say yeah. Plus the Martina-Seles comparison doesn't hold water. Just look at the age differential in each case.

OK so you are now admitting a pre-prime Seles dominated the womens game over a prime Graf. What more is there to argue about Graf's overratedness do we need. A pre-prme Graf could hardly win anything vs an aging Navratilova, needing to reach her own prime in 1988 to start winning more regularly over an even older Martina. However a pre-prime Seles dominated the womens game over a prime Graf in 91 and 92. I am at a loss what else is needed to be said now that we have confirmed this reality.

You are right the age differential is vastly different which is my whole point anyway. When Graf was 17 and 18 she won only 1 slam with a past her prme much older 29 and 30 year old Navratilova on top. When Seles was 17 and 18 she won 6 out of 8 slams with a 22 and 23 year old prime Graf there.

[hoodjem]

Six months ago, I would have been objectively receptive to hearing the anti-Graf-pro-Seles arguments.

But, unfortunately, Julesb's crazed crusade has prejudiced me against Seles forever.

Ho hum.

[Lionheart392]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Six months ago, I would have been objectively receptive to hearing the anti-Graf-pro-Seles arguments.

But, unfortunately, Julesb's crazed crusade has prejudiced me against Seles forever.

Ho hum.

Although I am a big Graf fan I've always liked and respected Seles. Unfortunately all these threads have made me seem like a Seles-hater.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by julesb

The famous and highly espected Tennis historian Frank Deford 8 years ago picked Steffi Graf as the most overrated tennis player ever:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3423/index.htm

Agree with Deford 100%.

[tudwell]

julesb, you beat this dead horse so hard it verges on necrophilia.

[Lionheart392]

Originally Posted by tudwell

julesb, you beat this dead horse so hard it verges on necrophilia.

I think even most necrophiliacs would find this obsession distasteful.

[schap02]

Graf was AWESOME

at tennis, not looking

[NonP]

Originally Posted by julesb

OK so you are now admitting a pre-prime Seles dominated the womens game over a prime Graf. What more is there to argue about Graf's overratedness do we need. A pre-prme Graf could hardly win anything vs an aging Navratilova, needing to reach her own prime in 1988 to start winning more regularly over an even older Martina. However a pre-prime Seles dominated the womens game over a prime Graf in 91 and 92. I am at a loss what else is needed to be said now that we have confirmed this reality.

You are right the age differential is vastly different which is my whole point anyway. When Graf was 17 and 18 she won only 1 slam with a past her prme much older 29 and 30 year old Navratilova on top. When Seles was 17 and 18 she won 6 out of 8 slams with a 22 and 23 year old prime Graf there.

What I meant was, Graf was 11 or 12 years younger when she faced Martina, but only 5 years older against Seles. That's the age differential I was referring to. And I wouldn't say '91 and '92 were Graf's prime years. Heck, she made only 3 Slam finals in the two-year interval, and none of the early-round losses were to Seles. IIRC this was a tough period in her personal life, which explains in part the relatively subpar results.

And here's another angle that often gets omitted. Let's say the stabbing had never happened and Seles stuck around the whole time. Had Graf managed to win 18 (give or take a few) majors despite that, the smaller # of her titles would've actually made her GOAT case stronger, as paradoxical as that sounds.

One can disagree on how Graf, Navratilova and Evert (or Court, for that matter) should be ranked. What is undeniable is that they all belong up there.

[rod99]

Originally Posted by julesb

OK in that case I guess Seles wasnt even in her prime when she dominated womens tennis over a prime Graf in 1991 and 1992 winning 6 out of 8 slams. After all she was only 17 and 18 those two years too.

another ignorant post. you do realize that players reach their peak at different times, don't you? some players reach it in their teens and some not until their late 20's. graf's "prime" was from 1987 - 1990 when she was 18-21. graf's peak has nothing to do with the age that seles achieved her peak.

[julesb]

Originally Posted by pmerk34

Agree with Deford 100%.

Good to see someone with a brain.

These are my all time rankings:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Serena Williams
4. Monica Seles
5. Venus Williams
6. Maureen Connolly
7. Margaret Court
8. Suzanne Lenglen
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Billie Jean King
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Maria Bueno
13. Jennifer Capriati
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Steffi Graf