Greatest Forehands of All Time

[Nathaniel_Near]

Originally Posted by krosero

We have some stats in chart form: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=194913.

Andreev defeating Roddick hit an average of 1 forehand winner per game, can't recall if we ever found a higher rate.

One that I've learned of since then is Lendl in the 1987 Masters final over Wilander: 18 forehand winners over 25 games, per the New York Times (I haven't found a copy of that match anywhere to confirm the number).

Hmm, this is interesting and thanks. Are there any plans for analyzing more matches? Work loads could be rationed.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by krosero

We have some stats in chart form: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=194913.

Andreev defeating Roddick hit an average of 1 forehand winner per game, can't recall if we ever found a higher rate.

One that I've learned of since then is Lendl in the 1987 Masters final over Wilander: 18 forehand winners over 25 games, per the New York Times (I haven't found a copy of that match anywhere to confirm the number).

I can't confirm, but I think Berastegui may have hit 32 FH winners in 44 games with Agassi which would be 2nd on your chart. You may also want to look at some of Gonzalez matches....I know he has come close to 1 FH winner per game. He once hit about 18 FH winners in around 22 games.

[Nathaniel_Near]

I can't edit posts yet which is a bit annoying. Is it a privilege that is only granted when one has made it out of Noobcity? Or am I missing an obvious trick...

Yeah; one more thing to add. Absolutely I must see more of Lendl. My suggestions at the moment are only provisional in my mind. I don't claim I am absolutely correct, but only that my reasoning isn't some kind of illegal stupid. =P

I especially look forward to watching many decades of tennis, and to understand what it feels like to keep a vigilant eye on the whole landscape and context of tennis. I think there is something to be said for actually living through eras and actively experiencing the whole context and 'aura' of the landscape in realtime.

Cheers.

[dannykl]

Originally Posted by martini1

I think in order to be the "best", there's more than just power and consistency. They are important but Fed's liquid whip can hit ball pretty much anywhere he wants (most of the time) and it is very efficient.

Again, in Lendl era there weren't too many 6'4" 6'6" 200+lb power baseliners with the rackets we see today. I think even Lendl in prime would have the chance of being over powered by the big guys or be constantly on the run by those 3000rpm top spin ground strokes.

It's true in general today's players hit with more speed from baseline than Lendl's era with the help of the much improved racket technology.

However if Lendl competes today he can benefit from the new technology and sport science as well. Even with only the old rackets he already can hit bigger forehand than most of the present players. Now if we give him a modern racket, I can't image how strong and explosive his forehand would be if he was still young and fit. He will be able to control the ball much easier with modern racket as well.


If Lendl competes today, yes he will face more big guns than before, however, the power of his strokes themselves will increase to another level by the help of modern technology. His forehand can be even more devastating and even more accurate.

Now image if Federer hits forehand with an old Lendl's racket. How good would he be? Would he still be able to make all the shots with no help from today's racket? I seriously doubt.

My conclusion, with modern new racket, Lendl will have even more lethal and powerful forehand with amazing accuracy. I think it would be a better forehand than Federer's.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near

Hmm, this is interesting and thanks. Are there any plans for analyzing more matches? Work loads could be rationed.

Two of us on this board are still getting stats for matches -- winners, unforced errors, service percentages, etc. Those charts were a byproduct of that effort, not the goal, though they were nice to have (and I haven't updated them in a long time). There are no fixed plans, we just do whatever matches spark an interest or a particular question.

[Fedchamp]

Originally Posted by pc1

Excellent list. I would put Borg's, Fred Perry's, John Newcombe, Nastase and Tilden up there also. I would think Borg's has to be in consideration for number one since he won on clay and grass with that stroke as the better of his two sides.

I'm glad you put Segura up there since a lot of people think it was the greatest single shot in the history of tennis.

I may move Lendl ahead of Sampras since it was a most consistent shot and they were close in pure power. Sampras' forehand was pretty awesome however.

IMO modern day forehands ie in the last 20 years are more powerful. I recently watched video of Sampras vs Lendl and Sampras' forehand was noticeably more powerful. Lendl and all the players of his generation and before all had more compact swings. He abbreviated his follow through and had less racquet speed than modern players. I think in terms of pure power , Sampras had the biggest forehand.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

I can't confirm, but I think Berastegui may have hit 32 FH winners in 44 games with Agassi which would be 2nd on your chart.

Indeed that's the exact number he hit:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+winners&hl=en

[krosero]

We do have one rate higher than Adreev's: Nadal had 23 forehand winners in 22 games over Roddick at Queens: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=204088.

That's a best-two-of-three and not the greatest sample, but still, 22 games is long enough to be a blowout match in a best-of-five.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

You may also want to look at some of Gonzalez matches....I know he has come close to 1 FH winner per game. He once hit about 18 FH winners in around 22 games.

Also correct (d. Haas, 2007 AO):

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+winners&hl=en

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Fedchamp

IMO modern day forehands ie in the last 20 years are more powerful. I recently watched video of Sampras vs Lendl and Sampras' forehand was noticeably more powerful. Lendl and all the players of his generation and before all had more compact swings. He abbreviated his follow through and had less racquet speed than modern players. I think in terms of pure power , Sampras had the biggest forehand.

Lendl in his later years tended to temporize on his forehand. He was comparable of hitting much harder. That being said, Sampras' forehand is one of the hardest hit forehands I've seen. It may have been exhibitions but in the Sampras against Federer matches a few years ago, Pete's forehand was also in my opinion noticeably more powerful than Federer's.

[krosero]

And Federer, 17 FH winners, 21 games, Santoro, 2008 AO (by my count). Four of those FH's were passing shots.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by krosero

Also correct (d. Haas, 2007 AO):

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+winners&hl=en

Ah, thanks for the confirmations. I didn't have time to do more than a 1 min search for either match, and didn't find the forehand stats. Plus, I didn't remember exactly when gonzales did that! Only the numbers! I suspect given his ridiculous style, he'll have many a big numbers match. Of course, if I were to look for UE, I might also suspect him!

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Of course, if I were to look for UE, I might also suspect him!

Oh no doubt, but not in that match (only 3 ue's from all strokes).

[krosero]

The best rate of forehand winners that I know about belongs to Irina Spirlea, who hit 38 when she beat Seles at the 1997 U.S. Open (stat from Bud Collins), over the course of 35 games (a great sample). I wonder whether that stat might be inflated with more than clean winners (ie, judgment calls) but it's still a phenomenal day on the forehand.

The next best I have for the women:

Ivanovic against Dechy, 2008 Wimbledon, 36 FH winners in 44 games

Graf against Navratilova, 1988 Wimbledon, 22 FH winners in 27 games by my count (18 of those FH's went past Martina as she came to net).

[anointedone]

I remember the stats of the Spirlea-Seles quarterfinal and Spirlea-Venus semifinal of the 97 U.S Open being almost the same. Seles and Venus with 30-something winners and 50-something unforced errors and Spirlea with 50-something winners and 70-something unforced errors in both matches. In both the player who had a match point ended up losing.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

The best rate of forehand winners that I know about belongs to Irina Spirlea, who hit 38 when she beat Seles at the 1997 U.S. Open (stat from Bud Collins), over the course of 35 games (a great sample). I wonder whether that stat might be inflated with more than clean winners (ie, judgment calls) but it's still a phenomenal day on the forehand.

The next best I have for the women:

Ivanovic against Dechy, 2008 Wimbledon, 36 FH winners in 44 games

Graf against Navratilova, 1988 Wimbledon, 22 FH winners in 27 games by my count (18 of those FH's went past Martina as she came to net).

It would be fascinating if someone got the stats from as far back as possible on all the majors over the years and see how the ratios of winners to unforced errors have changed as equipment has changed. I remember reading during the Budge era the a ratio of 2 to 1 was considered great during that day but now it's rather common and easily surpassed.

[johanneskepler]

Harold Solomon. LOL

[Moose Malloy]

I can't confirm, but I think Berastegui may have hit 32 FH winners in 44 games with Agassi which would be 2nd on your chart

Impressive memory. thanks for posting that youtube clip. Not sure if I've seen anyone torch Agassi off the ground like that. Sure he's been overpowered from the baseline before, but it seemed like Berasategui's fh was completely unreadable that day, Andre was nowhere near many of those winners.

I imagine he hit a ton of fh winners when he made it to the '94 FO final as well.

krosero, have you come across any stats on El Aynaoui's fh at the '03 AO?

[krosero]

Here's a boxscore for Spirlea-Seles in the New York Daily News:

GRAPHIC:
US OPEN
SPIRLEA-SELES
MATCH BOX SCORE
Spirlea Seles
First serve 67% 65%
Aces 9 5
Double faults 5 2
1st serve points won 81% 73%
2d serve points won 50% 49%
Winners 75 41
Unforced errors 47 23
Break points 3-6 1-8
Net approaches 31-45 11-18
Total points won 122 115
Time 2:19

[krosero]

And the St. Petersburg Times for Williams-Spirlea (which ended 9-7 in a third-set tiebreak):

"It was a curious match, filled with tense moments and tense play. Spirlea had more aces (3 to 2), winners (56 to 34) and points won (124 to 118 ) than Williams, yet lost."