Greatest Serves of All Time

[NonP]

Originally Posted by The-Champ

Some of you gentlemen have placed Becker ahead of Stich in the serve department? The only department Becker wins is probably the power but Stich is not that far behind. Accuracy, spins, artistry/fluidity...Stich wins IMO.

I actually had Stich pretty up high at first. The best 2nd serve Sampras says he ever faced, and the best disguise according to Goran. Stich's problem, though, was that he usually didn't get a very high % of 1st serves in, even if one considers that his head screwed everything up at times.

Maybe the additional spin with today's racquets could improve it somewhat, but then you see today someone like Murray who is about the same height (just an inch shorter) but who also has trouble keeping up the %s.

Originally Posted by pc1

Okay a couple of minor criticisms. Isner's serve is terrific but he hasn't been around that long. I don't think he should be on the list quite yet.

Roddick's serve is actually one of the best ever since he's often led the ATP in percentage of holding serve for a number of years. Considering that I don't think he has the all court skills or mobility of a Nadal or Federer, that says something for his serve.

pc1, I actually agree that Isner hasn't been tested enough to rank near the top. He's on the list 'cause President (I think) suggested that his serve might be better than Roddick's, and I do think, as a pure shot, it is among the best, and we have enough data that support this view. But as you can see I still put him below A-Rod, for the reason you mentioned. Maybe I'll drop him down a few notches in my next update.

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I think Smith had a bigger and better serve than Ashe, Newcombe and Noah who are on your list. I think Alexander had a bigger serve than Smith, one of the biggest ever. But, I can't say it was better. Smith had much more success as a player overall, and that counts for something when assessing the greatness of a player's best shot. I don't know that much about Falkenburg, other than that he was a Wimbledon champ.

Having said that, Federer's serve is conspicuously missing from your list. He's easily top 10, IMO. What he lacks in power compared to some othres he more than makes up for in pinpoint accuracy and disguise.

Limpin, sorry, I meant to say Froehling, not Falkenburg. Obviously Falkenburg is going a little too far, even for you.

As for Fed, I'm not sure if you've been following this thread from the beginning, but what I'm trying to do here is to rank these serves as stand-alone shots. In other words, I'm trying to rank the greatest serves of all time, not greatest serveRs per se.

Let me put it this way. As you may well know, Goran was one crazy SoB, and as such his form and in turn his service stats varied wildly. An infamous example is the '98 Wimbledon final, where he served a whopping 20 DFs against Sampras. (BTW the only match I recall in which a player served even more DFs was back at the '06 AO where Coria had 23 against Grosjean in the 3rd round, but that was when his serving yips had already begun in full swing. Also I remember watching Verdasco's 4th-round match against Davydenko from last year's AO and wondering, with a wide grin, whether he'd beat that dubious record. (Un)fortunately he cut down on those DFs in the 5th and ended up with only 20, though he did lose the match.)

Of course, it's matches like that which make people (including a few posters on this very thread) say Goran served too many DFs, when the year-round stats show that his average # of DFs wasn't actually out of the ordinary. That tells me those rare instances of choking on his part were indeed just that, choking, attributable more to the mind than to the body (read: technique). Ditto "hitting aces and service winners on big points," to quote your own criteria.

And that's also why most of us would nod our head when someone said, "Pete might have had the best package, but Goran had the best serve." I know urban once pooh-poohed this line of thinking, but it makes sense to me. And similarly, I don't think Fed's serve (or Borg's for that matter), again as a pure shot, is quite among the best of the best, partly for the reasons pc1 listed. Put another way, if you gave Fed Goran's or Arthurs' serve, he'd be even more devastating.

(BTW, while I do agree that Fed deserves consideration among the best servers, one of the knocks against him is his history of liability to a low 1st-serve % in big matches.)

Having said all that, you really think Smith's serve was better than Newcombe's, which is supposed to be one of the very greatest? Was Smith's 2nd serve comparable to Newk's? Also, I think you said on another thread that Alexander's serve was even bigger than Tanner's? How would you rank them in terms of consistency? (pc1 believes Dibley was too inconsistent to merit a place on the list.)

And for the record, Ashe's actually not on the list yet. Do you think he deserves to be added at all? Let me stress that the goal here is to rank the best of the best only, not to give shout-outs to every excellent serve that we've seen over the course of history.

As always, actual rankings would be nice.

Originally Posted by shake&bake

In the post above yours, I disagree about Roddicks serve. Sure, he can hit it 155 (well not anymore) but he doesnt move it around as much as the other big servers (Karlovic, Isner). Also, if he serve and volleyed more then he could easily win another major.

Your observation regarding Roddick's serve was probably true back in his hard-hitting days, but nowadays I find that he actually mixes it up quite well, and often with very high %s. A great example is the '09 Wimbledon final, where, the ace counts notwithstanding, he actually had more freebies than Fed thanks to those unreturned serves. And I should also point out that even post-prime Fed's return was (and is) better than Roddick's.

Originally Posted by krosero

Wilander defeated Zivojinovic at the 1988 Wimbledon, and just before their match Mats said, "His serve is much better than Becker's. You can play for 10 minutes against Bobo without hitting a real shot."

If this quote proves anything, it's that Wilander had a penchant for hyperbole well before he became a media darling. But seriously, does anyone buy that Zivojinovic had a much better serve than Boom Boom himself? Strictly speaking neither is in the same league as the top 4-5 on my list, but does Zivo boast the same consistency as Becker? Maybe krosero and others have a couple of stats handy?

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by NonP

If this quote proves anything, it's that Wilander had a penchant for hyperbole well before he became a media darling. But seriously, does anyone buy that Zivojinovic had a much better serve than Boom Boom himself? Strictly speaking neither is in the same league as the top 4-5 on my list, but does Zivo boast the same consistency as Becker? Maybe krosero and others have a couple of stats handy?

I have trouble giving Bobo the serve over BoomBoom....don't get me wrong, Bobo had better diguise, a quicker motion, and MAYBE a higher top end (or at least got the higher speeds more often), but I don't think he was the clutch server Becker was...I don't think his 2nd serve...while heavy...was as dangerous as Becker's.

And no...not as consistent....it always seemed to me that the margin for error on his biggest flat blasts was low....he seemed in particular to hit a lot into the net, from what I remember. Not sure if that was due to his toss, posture, head, etc....just don't remember well enough to comment.

He sort of reminded of Taylor Dent. A big plodding man....with a heavy serve that was a big weapon...but just seemed to miss a few too many of the big bomb serves when it really counted.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by NonP

. . . Limpin, sorry, I meant to say Froehling, not Falkenburg. Obviously Falkenburg is going a little too far, even for you.

As for Fed, I'm not sure if you've been following this thread from the beginning, but what I'm trying to do here is to rank these serves as stand-alone shots. In other words, I'm trying to rank the greatest serves of all time, not greatest serveRs per se.

Let me put it this way. As you may well know, Goran was one crazy SoB, and as such his form and in turn his service stats varied wildly. An infamous example is the '98 Wimbledon final, where he served a whopping 20 DFs against Sampras. (BTW the only match I recall in which a player served even more DFs was back at the '06 AO where Coria had 23 against Grosjean in the 3rd round, but that was when his serving yips had already begun in full swing. Also I remember watching Verdasco's 4th-round match against Davydenko from last year's AO and wondering, with a wide grin, whether he'd beat that dubious record. (Un)fortunately he cut down on those DFs in the 5th and ended up with only 20, though he did lose the match.)

Of course, it's matches like that which make people (including a few posters on this very thread) say Goran served too many DFs, when the year-round stats show that his average # of DFs wasn't actually out of the ordinary. That tells me those rare instances of choking on his part were indeed just that, choking, attributable more to the mind than to the body (read: technique). Ditto "hitting aces and service winners on big points," to quote your own criteria.

And that's also why most of us would nod our head when someone said, "Pete might have had the best package, but Goran had the best serve." I know urban once pooh-poohed this line of thinking, but it makes sense to me. And similarly, I don't think Fed's serve (or Borg's for that matter), again as a pure shot, is quite among the best of the best, partly for the reasons pc1 listed. Put another way, if you gave Fed Goran's or Arthurs' serve, he'd be even more devastating.

(BTW, while I do agree that Fed deserves consideration among the best servers, one of the knocks against him is his history of liability to a low 1st-serve % in big matches.)

Having said all that, you really think Smith's serve was better than Newcombe's, which is supposed to be one of the very greatest? Was Smith's 2nd serve comparable to Newk's? Also, I think you said on another thread that Alexander's serve was even bigger than Tanner's? How would you rank them in terms of consistency? (pc1 believes Dibley was too inconsistent to merit a place on the list.)

And for the record, Ashe's actually not on the list yet. Do you think he deserves to be added at all? Let me stress that the goal here is to rank the best of the best only, not to give shout-outs to every excellent serve that we've seen over the course of history.

As always, actual rankings would be nice.
* * *

Ahh, Froehling! Yes, I had the opportunity to see him play a few team tennis matches. He was tall, skinny, and really whipped his serve in there. It's been many years, but, to my recollection, his serve motion was a bit of a semi-straight arm motion, similar to Ashe's. For me, as I explained in my high rating of Federer's serve, the measure of any great shot has to include consideration of how it was used to win championships. To my knowledge, Froehling had a good, but short, record in majors. I think he was a U.S. Open finalist one year. But, that's not enough of a championship record to put him in to the top 20, IMO.

As for Smith, IMO, his serve was one of the best, if not the best, of the early 70's. But, there was very little observable intensity in his game. He seemed very casual, almost indifferent in match play. He didn't get down well to low volleys or groundies. Overall, Newcombe was a better player IMO. Newk had a big serve and a big forehand, but, his real forte was his touch/dink and net game. Unlike Laver who took tremendous pride in how hard he could pound the ball and blast his opponent off of the court, and would never resort to dinks and touch as an approach to a match, Newk was just the opposite. He would be content, even delighted, to drop, lob and dink his opponent all day, the way he did to Connors in the 74' AO. So, overall, Newk was the better player, especially on grass. But, Smith's serve was slightly better IMO.

As for Alexander, I remember him playing great overpowering Smith in a hard court match in a straight sets, only to lose easily to Dick Stockton in the next round missing many first serves and just looking off of his game. Yes, as I recall, Alexander's serve was as big as Tanner's serve (I can't say it was bigger, but, they both had the biggest serves in the game along with Colin Dibley), but, he didn't have as successful a career, especially in majors. So, it's hard for me to put Alexander in the top 20 as well.

As for Ashe, IMO he had a top 20 backhand, top 20 athleticism and was top 20 in versatility and tactics. He was very able, and willing, to change his game to suit the situation in order to win. But, I don't think his serve was top 20. It was a great serve, but, not that great.

[Bilbo]

I've seen Froehiling play, matter of fact I have a video of him playing Wanaro N'Godrella, if my CD drive wasn't messed up I'd post it. But, i digress, Arthur Ashe had a huge serve, but I don't know about top 20. Clark Graebner's serve, I think should be in the top 10. I haven't actually seen it yet, but I should be getting the 1968 Davis Cup F in the mail in a couple of days, so then I can do a more accurate analysis.

Also, John McEnroe said Ivan Ljubicic's serve was top 10 all time, and I respect his opinion on that. For what it's worth, here's my list (Open Era only because Pre-Open Era and Open Era players should not be compared).

1. Goran Ivanisevic
2. Ivo Karlovic
3. Pete Sampras
4. Andy Roddick
5. Boris Becker
6. Ivan Ljubicic
7. Roscoe Tanner
8. Clark Graebner
9. Jon Isner
10. Richard Krajicek

[Moose Malloy]

, John McEnroe said Ivan Ljubicic's serve was top 10 all time, and I respect his opinion on that

when did he say that?

I noticed you removed your youtube clips. are you posting them on another site?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Bilbo

I've seen Froehiling play, matter of fact I have a video of him playing Wanaro N'Godrella, if my CD drive wasn't messed up I'd post it. But, i digress, Arthur Ashe had a huge serve, but I don't know about top 20. Clark Graebner's serve, I think should be in the top 10. I haven't actually seen it yet, but I should be getting the 1968 Davis Cup F in the mail in a couple of days, so then I can do a more accurate analysis.

Also, John McEnroe said Ivan Ljubicic's serve was top 10 all time, and I respect his opinion on that. For what it's worth, here's my list (Open Era only because Pre-Open Era and Open Era players should not be compared).

1. Goran Ivanisevic
2. Ivo Karlovic
3. Pete Sampras
4. Andy Roddick
5. Boris Becker
6. Ivan Ljubicic
7. Roscoe Tanner
8. Clark Graebner
9. Jon Isner
10. Richard Krajicek

Interesting list. I never saw Graebner play, but, he did use (experiment with) the Wilson T2000, one of the most powerful racquets ever made, toward the end of his career. I can't wait to see your Froehling clip. When/where did you see him play?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

when did he say that?

I noticed you removed your youtube clips. are you posting them on another site?

I heard him say something like that during highlights of Ljubicic's last match.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by NonP

A great example is the '09 Wimbledon final, where, the ace counts notwithstanding, he actually had more freebies than Fed thanks to those unreturned serves.

Roddick did have more freebies than Federer (98 to 88 ) if you count all unreturned serves, but that is only because he had to serve far more points than Federer (239 vs. 197). If the two men had served close to the same number of points Roddick would be behind in freebies.

That has something to do with the quality of the returner and I agree even in '09 Federer had the better return. And overall I'd take Roddick's serve over Federer's.

Originally Posted by NonP

If this quote proves anything, it's that Wilander had a penchant for hyperbole well before he became a media darling. :twisted: But seriously, does anyone buy that Zivojinovic had a much better serve than Boom Boom himself? Strictly speaking neither is in the same league as the top 4-5 on my list, but does Zivo boast the same consistency as Becker? Maybe krosero and others have a couple of stats handy?

Same consistency, I don't think so. As for stats the only one I have is from Wimbledon '87:

"Yesterday, in dispatching Great Britain's Jeremy Bates in three sets - 7-6, 7-5, 7-6 - Zivojinovic served on 110 points. Of that number, 26 serves were aces. Another 30 points were service winners. What that means is that Bates returned only 54 out of 110 serves - 49 percent. That is how well Zivojinovic is serving." (Philadelphia Daily News)

That comes to a rate of 51% of all serves unreturned (presuming that Bobo's double-faults are accounted for in the above excerpt, or that he didn't serve any).

Anyway 51% is right up there with the top rates mentioned upthread. I think we had Becker just barely over 50% in a few matches, and Sampras just slightly higher than that in a few.

[Bilbo]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Interesting list. I never saw Graebner play, but, he did use (experiment with) the Wilson T2000, one of the most powerful racquets ever made, toward the end of his career. I can't wait to see your Froehling clip. When/where did you see him play?

I have a DVD of him playing Wanaro N'Godrella in the 1973 French Open 3rd Round. Froehling beat him pretty soundly, but I really wanted the video for the N'Godrella footage (him being one of the first significant black pro tennis players and all). I'm only 18, so i never saw him play live or anything . Ill post it up within the next week once I get my external CD Drive.

And to answer Moose Malloy's question, I deleted my old youtube account, but I'll repost the stuff I had up (since it's already downloaded to my computer)

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Bilbo

I have a DVD of him playing Wanaro N'Godrella in the 1973 French Open 3rd Round. Froehling beat him pretty soundly, but I really wanted the video for the N'Godrella footage (him being one of the first significant black pro tennis players and all). I'm only 18, so i never saw him play live or anything . Ill post it up within the next week once I get my external CD Drive.

And to answer Moose Malloy's question, I deleted my old youtube account, but I'll repost the stuff I had up (since it's already downloaded to my computer)

OK, I'm dying to know how one gets there hands on a DVD of a Froehling/N'Godrella match. Seriously! Because, if you can do that, then there must be innumberable other matches you can find on DVD, no.

[Bilbo]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

OK, I'm dying to know how one gets there hands on a DVD of a Froehling/N'Godrella match. Seriously! Because, if you can do that, then there must be innumberable other matches you can find on DVD, no.

Absolutely! Enter Rick Sasha! The most awesome man I've ever met in the entirety of my life (outside of my dad). He needs to get back to me on the 1968 Davis Cup F singles match between Graebner and Ruffels ... but anyways he has the largest collection of high quality classic tennis matches I've ever seen in my life. And, perhaps the most amazing thing is most of them cost no more than 10 bucks .

http://www.ricklovestennis.com/ (note you won't find the N'Godrella match on the website i don't think. I had to request that one).

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Absolutely! Enter Rick Sasha! The most awesome man I've ever met in the entirety of my life (outside of my dad). He needs to get back to me on the 1968 Davis Cup F singles match between Graebner and Ruffels ... but anyways he has the largest collection of high quality classic tennis matches I've ever seen in my life. And, perhaps the most amazing thing is most of them cost no more than 10 bucks .

http://www.ricklovestennis.com/ (note you won't find the N'Godrella match on the website i don't think. I had to request that one).

SHAH-WINGGGGGG!

[Moose Malloy]

Strictly speaking neither is in the same league as the top 4-5 on my list, but does Zivo boast the same consistency as Becker? Maybe krosero and others have a couple of stats handy?

stats I took on '85 Wimbledon 1st Round, Zivojinovic d. Wilander 62 57 75 60

Bobo was 52 of 113 on 1st serve(46%)
Had 15 aces(3 on 2nd serve), 12 df's
Had 29 other unreturned serves.
so 39% of serves were unreturned

stats I took on '86 Wimbledon SF, Lendl d Zivojinovic 62 67 63 67 64

96-174(55%)
18 aces(1 on 2nd serve), 7 df's
had 46 other unreturned serves
37% of serves unreturned

[LeftyFL]

You don't include Federer?!!!

[abmk]

Originally Posted by NonP

(BTW, while I do agree that Fed deserves consideration among the best servers, one of the knocks against him is his history of liability to a low 1st-serve % in big matches.)

eh, I can recall only two instances, AO 2009 final, USO 2009 final ( neither of them in his peak years ) , that's about it. Not sure how that makes it a liability to a low 1st serve % in big matches ?

[rod99]

Originally Posted by LeftyFL

You don't include Federer?!!!

no. his serve isn't top 20 all time. anyone who thinks it is doesn't know anything about tennis. and i'm a huge federer fan.

[fed_rulz]

Originally Posted by rod99

no. his serve isn't top 20 all time. anyone who thinks it is doesn't know anything about tennis. and i'm a huge federer fan.

so what???

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by rod99

no. his serve isn't top 20 all time. anyone who thinks it is doesn't know anything about tennis. and i'm a huge federer fan.

Well, anyone who thinks it isn't is a great big poopy pants . . . and I'm not a huge Federer fan.

[rod99]

Originally Posted by fed_rulz

so what???

i'm saying that i'm not one of those guys who talks down someone's game b/c they don't like him or they are a huge fan of one of his rivals.

[krosero]

Curren had an unreturned rate of 57.6% when he swept Connors at '85 Wimby, per Moose's count.

I don't recall any other rate upthread that was higher. The next highest I know of is Sampras at 52.3%, 2000 Wimbledon final vs. Rafter.

The only previous rate we had for Curren was 40% in his loss to Becker.