Why do pros never use the twist serve?

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by junbumkim

Kick serve or twist serve, the definition is a little vague.

Anyway, it's hard to see on TV how much side spin (in addition to topspin) pro's 2nd serve have. Even the nasty one's does not really breaking away like a slice serve.

I am sure Roger did want to put a lot of spin on the serve, but he probably didn't expect it to be that much.

Kick serve is a general class of serves that have a heavy topspin component that causes the to kick upward. The twist serve is one type kick serve that kicks off to the side. It is not (vertical-axis) side spin that causes the bounce deviation -- spiral spin is responsible for this. The side spin causes the serve to break to the right (as seen by the receiver) during flight but has no effect on the bounce. On the other hand, spiral spin does not result in any Magnus effect and thus, does not create any deviation during the flight. However, the ground interaction of the spiral spin causes the ball to bounce off to the side.

[LightningZI]

Originally Posted by Cross-court

Why don't they use it? Is it hard for them to execute it as a second serve consistently? Or is it not safe as the kick?

This is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2...eature=related

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

I don't think anyone has brought it up yet but the reason that this serve is different and was special is because it's not the regular righty kick. It's a kick serve hit by a righty with lefty spin. American Twist Serve is what it's called I'm pretty sure.

Only reason it shocked everyone is because the serve requires greater drop down and much more shoulder. Pat Rafter used this serve quite a bit since Pat Rafter was a guy who used Kick Serves for 1st and 2nd serves.

LeeD I'm sorry but your sort of wrong. Hitting Twist serves wouldn't be very predictable, Angles can change, spin, for that reason we also hit flat serves for 95% of first serves.

[athiker]

I'm a little vague on the exact difference between kick/twist but it seems like Federer pulls a pretty extreme one out of his bag occasionally late in sets or tiebreaks as a change-up. Against Murray in the AO he hit some pretty severe ones I thought. He didn't ace Murray I don't think like the one in the video, but they were pretty effective.

Anyone else recall this? I'm a little fuzzy this morning on when he uses it. It seems like I've seen him use it to finish off the last point in a game, just like in the video...especially if he is up 40-love or 40-15.

[LeeD]

Oh, I didn't know we were limiting our playing levels when we were talking about kick/American twist serves.
Even at 5.0 levels, Div11 like, the twist out wide is used to move the returner out of his normal comfort zone.
As said, lots of players above 4.0 can handle that, so we don't use the same serve every time, like we don't hit the ball exactly the same spot everytime, unless it's winning us the point.
A Twist/Kick doesn't WIN the point against what I consider equal competition. It DOES throw in variety for cause of confusion and to make the returner think more than he did, so too many options sometimes ilicits weak returns or maybe even errors.
NOT having the American twist, you can play decent tennis, you just don't have one more useful weapon.
As an aside, most females don't use the twist serves. Some do, like Henin and the William's, but they choose to select and limit it to special occasions.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by Cross-court

Why don't they use it? Is it hard for them to execute it as a second serve consistently? Or is it not safe as the kick?

This is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2...eature=related

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

You're a flippin' retard, and like LeeD said, you're not very attentive either.

Most pros hit purely kick serves for second serves. I don't know if Safin even owns a slice second serve.

And twist serves ARE kick serves. Do your homework! Just because it's not a friggin' ace doesn't mean it's not a twist serve. On TV, it's very difficult to see the chance in direction of the serve, but it's there. Roddick uses it, Federer uses it, Blake uses it, Melzer has a sick one, Murray uses it, Karlovic uses it, Agassi uses it, Courier uses it, and pretty much do 80+% of pros.

[Djokovicfan4life]

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

You're a flippin' retard, and like LeeD said, you're not very attentive either.

Haha, a little harsh, don't ya think? It was just a question, and believe me, there are much stupider ones posted every day on this board.

As for pro twist serves, just watch Marin Cilic for evidence of a killer one. Predictable, maybe, but who cares when it bounces over your opponents head every time?

[LightningZI]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Oh, I didn't know we were limiting our playing levels when we were talking about kick/American twist serves.
Even at 5.0 levels, Div11 like, the twist out wide is used to move the returner out of his normal comfort zone.
As said, lots of players above 4.0 can handle that, so we don't use the same serve every time, like we don't hit the ball exactly the same spot everytime, unless it's winning us the point.
A Twist/Kick doesn't WIN the point against what I consider equal competition. It DOES throw in variety for cause of confusion and to make the returner think more than he did, so too many options sometimes ilicits weak returns or maybe even errors.
NOT having the American twist, you can play decent tennis, you just don't have one more useful weapon.
As an aside, most females don't use the twist serves. Some do, like Henin and the William's, but they choose to select and limit it to special occasions.

Practically what I just said in my post when you said that we don't hit the ball in the same spot.. Unless of course it works, Then it obviously stops working soon after.

There's a difference between having a weapon and using it. Having it and not using it is technically the same as not having it unless there's specific cases, While having it and using it is much different. Not many use the American Twist, For obvious reasons as you should know.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by LightningZI

I don't think anyone has brought it up yet but the reason that this serve is different and was special is because it's not the regular righty kick. It's a kick serve hit by a righty with lefty spin. American Twist Serve is what it's called I'm pretty sure.

Only reason it shocked everyone is because the serve requires greater drop down and much more shoulder. Pat Rafter used this serve quite a bit since Pat Rafter was a guy who used Kick Serves for 1st and 2nd serves.

LeeD I'm sorry but your sort of wrong. Hitting Twist serves wouldn't be very predictable, Angles can change, spin, for that reason we also hit flat serves for 95% of first serves.

You're an idiot. Any player who regularly sees kick serves has no more trouble anticipating how it will bounce than a flat serve.

And only noobs use flat serves on 95% on first serves. Once you start playing real tennis, it's replaced by hard topspin serves.

And you don't even know what a kick serve is, what a twist serve is, and what an American twist serve is! You shouldn't be talking! A kick serve is a serve that bounces high. Originally it only referred to the twist serve (originally known as the American twist serve), but then there was an issue on calling whether it was a true twist or a topspin serve (since topspin serves do sometimes have that kind of action), so they labeled every high-bouncing serve under the category of a kick serve. A twist serve is a topspin serve with extra sidespin (not necessarily the normal kind, but more of a spiral type of sidespin) that makes it curve in the air the bounce the other way. It curves in the same direction as a slice serve, but changes direction in the opposite way (which is actually only a few degrees).

There are some rumors of the existence of a righty twist serve hit with the opposite spin (lefty twist serve spin). Such would be called a reverse kick serve or a reverse twist serve (obviously you couldn't think that far). There IS a reverse slice serve and was used in the Hopman Cup by Dimitry Tursunov for kicks and giggles. People NEVER use reverse serves in a serious match because it isn't practiced and lacks effectiveness throughout the length of a match.

[LightningZI]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Do you realize that vid is a one off, special, once in a lifetime shot? As all highlights, the player cannot hit that shot every time.
And even the next time, that ball gets returned no problem. Nothing really special about Feds twist there. He hit well inside the center line, but hit with good pace and bounce. He could hit that one better.
Returner was asleep, discouraged, ready to lose that point before the serve. Passing the returner, it was barely wide of the center line.
I can serve twists there, but not as high bouncing. Of course, I tend to play in 60 degree or colder weather, and slick courts.

I think you contradicted yourself here Lee, You say it's a special once in a lifetime shot, But he could have hit that one better? How would you hit a "Special, Once in a Lifetime Shot" Better? I agree the returner wasn't the most attentive person. I haven't ever seen an old person brag but here you do it quite a bit. I understand your an amazing football star who failed to get to the NFL, an amazing Dirtbiker who failed to go pro... But at 60ish I don't think the best way to spend your life is bragging and staying on the Talk tennis forums more than a few hours of your life...

[LightningZI]

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

You're an idiot. Any player who regularly sees kick serves has no more trouble anticipating how it will bounce than a flat serve.

And only noobs use flat serves on 95% on first serves. Once you start playing real tennis, it's replaced by hard topspin serves.

And you don't even know what a kick serve is, what a twist serve is, and what an American twist serve is! You shouldn't be talking! A kick serve is a serve that bounces high. Originally it only referred to the twist serve (originally known as the American twist serve), but then there was an issue on calling whether it was a true twist or a topspin serve (since topspin serves do sometimes have that kind of action), so they labeled every high-bouncing serve under the category of a kick serve. A twist serve is a topspin serve with extra sidespin (not necessarily the normal kind, but more of a spiral type of sidespin) that makes it curve in the air the bounce the other way. It curves in the same direction as a slice serve, but changes direction in the opposite way (which is actually only a few degrees).

There are some rumors of the existence of a righty twist serve hit with the opposite spin (lefty twist serve spin). Such would be called a reverse kick serve or a reverse twist serve (obviously you couldn't think that far). There IS a reverse slice serve and was used in the Hopman Cup by Dimitry Tursunov for kicks and giggles. People NEVER use reverse serves in a serious match because it isn't practiced and lacks effectiveness throughout the length of a match.

Calm down a bit then I'll post a reply

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by Djokovicfan4life

Haha, a little harsh, don't ya think? It was just a question, and believe me, there are much stupider ones posted every day on this board.

As for pro twist serves, just watch Marin Cilic for evidence of a killer one. Predictable, maybe, but who cares when it bounces over your opponents head every time?

There's stupid and there's blind ignorance. This falls under the latter category. And the fact that there's even a misconception of what an American twist serve is?! Jesus! How dumb can people be?!

And I'll go look it up. Federer and Roddick also own very high kickers and are known for their abilities to hit 7 foot kickers. Though compared to others with the same ability, they are VERY short. Karlovic and Cilic are giants compared to Federer and Roddick.

[pabletion]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

The TV camera angle is partially to blame. Even world class first serves have a TON of spin and movement on them, the 2nd serves are insane.

It is just very difficult to see from the angles most matches are shown from.

Sometimes you can see it when they show the low 3/4 view like from the returner's shoulder, otherwise the serves look pretty straight.

But ask anyone who has faced an elite world class serve, and it is absolutely no bargain. Any twist serve your local 4.0-4.5 player can throw at you absolutely pales in comparison to even the little guys serves on the tour.

J

Yup, I had a hit last year with a Futures contender from the US (he didnt even enter the qualies). The serve was like nothing I have ever seen before. His kick serves were sick, and he just took a little look to see where I was standing and picked a corner; I tried stepping back, tried moving forward to take it on the rise........................ it would take a very long time to get used to a serve like that, it was, well, special.

[mucat]

Pro men hit the twist serve all the time. It is just the camera angle makes it difficult to see the twist. There are certain tell tale signs, if the opponent got jammed on the BH side by a 2nd serve, it is probably a twist.

[Djokovicfan4life]

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

There's stupid and there's blind ignorance. This falls under the latter category. And the fact that there's even a misconception of what an American twist serve is?! Jesus! How dumb can people be?!

And I'll go look it up. Federer and Roddick also own very high kickers and are known for their abilities to hit 7 foot kickers. Though compared to others with the same ability, they are VERY short. Karlovic and Cilic are giants compared to Federer and Roddick.

Cilic's really is insane. At 6'6 with a huge knee bend and back arch he gets some absolutely monstrous kick on his serve.

[Nellie]

to the OP - plenty of of pros hit an American twist serve. Djokovich, for example, hits really good ones.

I just think that the pros (male and female) like to keep the speed up as much as possible, and slice/kick serve works better for that. I also believe that some pros are worried about shoulder issues so they don't do the toss to the backhand side - the slice kick is much smoother on the rotator cuff.

[jazzyfunkybluesy]

Sometimes they hit the twist on the first serve to really keep people guessing.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by Djokovicfan4life

Cilic's really is insane. At 6'6 with a huge knee bend and back arch he gets some absolutely monstrous kick on his serve.

Can't find any good clips. But I'll keep looking. And yeah, a 6'6" player with that kind of knee bend should have something pretty sick. I saw one point where Djokovic clearly did return it from above his head, but he was a few feet behind the baseline. I saw some other people return it, and they stepped in to prevent such a scenario.

Originally Posted by Nellie

to the OP - plenty of of pros hit an American twist serve. Djokovich, for example, hits really good ones.

I just think that the pros (male and female) like to keep the speed up as much as possible, and slice/kick serve works better for that. I also believe that some pros are worried about shoulder issues so they don't do the toss to the backhand side - the slice kick is much smoother on the rotator cuff.

No. It's the camera angle. If you watch it from a better angle, you'll see the twist.

As for how monstrous the pro kickers are, I think it's more about the speed off the bounce in addition to the height more than anything else. Few rec players are used to high level kickers that seem to really explode off the bounce. Top players are used to it, but they'll still get jammed because of the placement. Even though when you play against them, the change in direction looks massive, it's really not all that much in terms of degrees, which is why it's very unnoticeable with a bad camera angle that we are normally fed.

[Djokovicfan4life]

I couldn't find a good vid of Marin either. The funny thing is, his first serve percentage was one of the worst at the Australian Open if I'm not mistaken. You'd think it'd be a model of consistency with the amount of spin he gets with that service motion.

[LeeD]

I think Celic goes for placement and spin to the extreme, causing a little inconsistency because he's GOING FOR IT. Sure, he doesn't always hit flat fast movers, but even a really hard spun serve is hard to hit if you're going 100% for placement and spin.
And at 6'4", if his percentage was up, he'd beat everyone. Fortunately for us, most tall guys serve great only so often, and mediocre quite often. Otherwise, 6' tall players would never stand a chance.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by LeeD

And at 6'4", if his percentage was up, he'd beat everyone. Fortunately for us, most tall guys serve great only so often, and mediocre quite often. Otherwise, 6' tall players would never stand a chance.

Actually, the reason the shorter players have a chance is because of superior movement and a more well rounded game (better groundstrokes).

However, the recent crop of giants seemed to have overcome that, but have issues with their serves... Go figure. Haha.