Of Trophies And Paperweights

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

What I don't get is this.

well, judging from all the pointless threads you start, there is A LOT YOU DON"T GET.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

1. Jolly said something you believe to be rude.

1. It was rude.
2. He lied about his playing level.
3. He continues doing it >>>>>> lying about his level, and being rude to those he feels are beneath his playing level, who coincidentally, he is no better than

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

2. Jolly has not withdrawn his statement or apologized, and he never will.

And in the same way, posters who have just as much right to post, will continue posting their thoughts on the matter, especially since he keeps putting down what he considers lower level players.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Why is there ever any reason to ever mention it ever again ever?

Some momo started this thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=312344

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Topaz

I don't think it is cool...and I have every right to say it. This is still a discussion forum right? I mean, I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to discuss this matter and only some were allowed to offer their thoughts to this conversation. You started this thread with the context of Jolly, but that doesn't mean every reply is in the same context.

This is the crux of the matter, I think.

Yes, anyone here can say anything. Point conceded. So why do I care if you raise this point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Because it has a chilling effect, Topaz.

If you and others continue to dredge this stuff up and keep it alive, it has an effect on the board. Consider TFM's original bet thread and the couple of others about the bet that were deleted. Jolly actually posted on one of those threads. Me, I was happy about that. I *want* to know how things are going for him in his own words. I'd like to hear about his opponents, what he thinks he needs to do to improve. I am genuinely interested.

If folks are going to stalk him (and yes, I think the "discussion" has risen to the level of stalking), then he isn't going to contribute and the discussion of his tennis exploits has been chilled. Instead of hearing how Jolly's last match went, I get to read how folks are *still* carrying a grudge about Jolly's posts. This is tiresome and frustrating for someone like me who would simply like to discuss tennis in a pleasant environment.

You know, I have been married almost 20 years now. I can assure you that my husband has said things and done things that I thought were rude. Do I raise these things over and over? No, I do not. Sure, I might get some perverse pleasure out of rubbing his face in it, needling him, giving him the business, setting the record straight. At some point, I have to *let it go already.* It is better for me, it is better for him, it is better for us.

Wouldn't you agree with me that it would be better for you, for Jolly, and for the innocent bystanders like me at TW if everyone just laid down their weapons? You know, forgive and forget? Be the bigger person? Take the high road? Is that really so hard?

There.

I have said my piece, made my position clear, explained myself as best I can. I will now lead by example, as it were. I simply won't respond if the Jolly Truth Squad keeps raising this stuff. I think it would be better if we all just Moved On. Whether you choose to do the same is entirely up to you.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by GuyClinch

^^^Agreed. If we start to argue that only accomplishments that are of the highest level matter then almost nothing most people do in life "matters." It's a very negative view of life. You didn't graduate from Harvard? Well don't frame that diploma. I suppose we should just throw away all our childhood academic awards because they aren't Nobel prizes.

Yes, but . . .

All trophies are not created equal. Surely we can agree that winning a major is a huge accomplishment because it means you were the very best tennis player in the world for those two weeks.

Winning a 2.5 trophy does not mean you were the best in the world. It doesn't even mean you were the best 2.5 in the world. It means you were the best 2.5 of the four 2.5 players who showed up that weekend.

If we turn the discussion to diplomas, a diploma means you completed a particular course of study. If Harvard, it was probably among the toughest in the world. If it was Hal's Wonderful World Of Diploma Mills, it means next to nothing.

Is a diploma from Hal's to be compared to a diploma from Harvard? Of course not. One is a trophy and the other is a paperweight.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Instead of hearing how Jolly's last match went, I get to read how folks are *still* carrying a grudge about Jolly's posts.

Because he continues to do it, therefore, posters are responding to him.

How is it that it is tiresome for you to read posters responses to his efforts of putting down players, yet it is not tiresome for you to read his BS??

and why did you start this thread if it is "tiresome" for you???

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

This is the crux of the matter, I think.

Yes, anyone here can say anything. Point conceded. So why do I care if you raise this point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Because it has a chilling effect, Topaz.

If you and others continue to dredge this stuff up and keep it alive, it has an effect on the board. Consider TFM's original bet thread and the couple of others about the bet that were deleted. Jolly actually posted on one of those threads. Me, I was happy about that. I *want* to know how things are going for him in his own words. I'd like to hear about his opponents, what he thinks he needs to do to improve. I am genuinely interested.

As am I, and if you read my posts on those threads, you would realize that.

The only things I saw deleted from the bet thread were false accusations and personal attacks (such as 'burn the witch'...ask mtommer about that one).

What have I dredged up? I think that was mtommer you want to talk to there. Funny how you excuse him, but if respond to him and defend myself, then *I'm* the one dredging stuff up?

If folks are going to stalk him (and yes, I think the "discussion" has risen to the level of stalking), then he isn't going to contribute and the discussion of his tennis exploits has been chilled. Instead of hearing how Jolly's last match went, I get to read how folks are *still* carrying a grudge about Jolly's posts. This is tiresome and frustrating for someone like me who would simply like to discuss tennis in a pleasant environment.

Well, look at who is starting the threads. You need to take a look at what is actually out there instead of believing just a few people.

Who is stalking who exactly? Again, I was going my happy little way in this thread, and it was mtommer who brought Jolly up again, followed by Joel and Ska, all aimed at me. But you 'scolded' me, not him. Your bias is showing loud and clear. Yet, YOU are the one who started this thread. I have contributed in a positive manner in this thread, can you say the same for your little friends?

Jolly has posted his own info on this forum many, many times. He agreed to the bet thread...a thread where it was made clear his results would be posted. Where is the stalking? Just because others accuse some of stalking, doesn't mean it actually happened or it is true.

Wouldn't you agree with me that it would be better for you, for Jolly, and for the innocent bystanders like me at TW if everyone just laid down their weapons? You know, forgive and forget? Be the bigger person? Take the high road? Is that really so hard?

I tried that once Cindy. Remember your 'pledge'? I took it. I stuck to it. Others, in your little 'Leave Jolly Alone Society', did not.

And then I was harassed and insulted myself. Interesting how you don't seem to remember that or hold others to their personal responsibility.

There.

I have said my piece, made my position clear, explained myself as best I can. I will now lead by example, as it were. I simply won't respond if the Jolly Truth Squad keeps raising this stuff. I think it would be better if we all just Moved On. Whether you choose to do the same is entirely up to you.

And I have said my piece, several times, yet you and Mtommer can't read my posts for what they are...you are the ones injecting Jolly into my posts to other people and are assuming everything I write is about him. You are the one who started this thread. Maybe you guys are the ones who need to Move On?

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by mtommer

As Topaz sees in another thread, "High level Open player" no longer equates to 5.5+.

What, what is it I see??? LOL Have you read that thread?

Result: Jolly never lied about claiming a high level. Given some of the remarks from the thread that got deleted, he in fact said he wasn't too.

Um, yes he did. I mean, Cindy doesn't want us to dredge things up, but if you are going to post things that you know are wrong, be prepared to be corrected.

Two sentences...

1. Topaz, your "3.5 trophy" achievement is laughable.

2. A 3.5 trophy is a paperweight to me.

And to you I say...that is not cool. Just like me and others have said...it is not cool and downright rude to belittle someone else's accomplishments. Why would you do that? Why would you say that to someone else? What does that do for YOU?

I have never belittled Jolly's accomplishments. Read my beef again. I have never suggested that he stop playing opens, only that he start also playing at his own level as well, because I think he will improve his tournament playing that way. His record clearly reflects that as well. Many others have said the same exact things I have, yet you guys always jump on me. Interesting.

Now, start reading through this thread as well as others. Number two equates to the follow: A personal opinion about a level of tennis and is not belittling anyone.



Of course it doesn't.



So what we end up with are Topaz' complaints nullified by HER own words. If she wants to continue on about acknowledging different views about trophies as viable, well, then I guess Jolly is now officially off the hook for his comments. It's the foregone conclusion to her posts, perfectly applicable. If she doesn't want to hold Jolly to the standard of her posts then fine, but she's a hypocrite then. I assume she's okay with that. I'm only "yelling" because I fail to see why she can't make the leap from what she has been saying to how it's applicable to Jolly. It's like saying the sky is blue and then criticizing someone for saying the sky is blue. Seems kind of looney to me.

No, what we have is you trying to twist everything I say because you are stalking me and bent on your little Jolly crusade.

I've never wavered here...I think it is rude for anyone to belittle someone else's achievements and hard work. I have not belittled Jolly's playing or anyone else's. I have expressed my disappointment with his words and his claims and his lack of personal responsibility.

I get that others don't think it is a big deal to have the actual physical piece of hardware...but I will always think it is cool and a big deal when someone works hard to improve and works toward a goal. I think we all agreed on that in this thread. Except, it seems, for you.

[skiracer55]

...look at what I said in post #18. The original question was "How proud should any of us be if we win a non-pro tournament or match?" where my stock answer is "This is not a group think exercise, IMHO...each of us is individually entitled to feel proud (or not) of whatever trophies you've won, for whatever reason." But I do think that striving and achieving your best, which is what I call winning, is a noble occupation.

If you look at ski racing, for example, there is as wide a spectrum of abilities and events as exist in tennis. For most World Cup and Olympic champions, a crystal globe or gold medal is the thrill of a lifetime. The first time I won a Masters race, which ain't even in the same league as the WC or Olympics, it was also the thrill of a lifetime for me. And last year, I saw some folks qualify for the NASTAR nationals, as first time racers, and it was the thrill of a lifetime for them and they cherished the medals they won. Striving for something and winning, IMHO, is one of life's rare thrills, and at whatever level, you ought to be proud and happy. Just be a gracious winner, and acknowledge the effort that your opponent or the other contestants put out, is my only request....

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...look at what I said in post #18. The original question was "How proud should any of us be if we win a non-pro tournament or match?" where my stock answer is "This is not a group think exercise, IMHO...each of us is individually entitled to feel proud (or not) of whatever trophies you've won, for whatever reason." But I do think that striving and achieving your best, which is what I call winning, is a noble occupation.

Well, people can take pride in a clod of dirt, too.

As you correctly say, "striving and achieving your best" is a noble occupation.

The part you wrote about winning, though . . . . That I'm not so sure about.

What I mean is this. Say you are playing tournaments and not winning any matches but are having competitive results against higher-level players. No paperweights for you. Far from it, in fact.

Is that "striving and achieving your best?" I ask, because I think it is in some sense. Yet I think I am in the minority on that around here.

[mtommer]

Originally Posted by Topaz

The only things I saw deleted from the bet thread were false accusations and personal attacks (such as 'burn the witch'...ask mtommer about that one).

Goodness, Topaz, that wasn't in any way shape or form an attack on you. When someone posts the picture of a witch, one must quote the obligatory Monty Python "Burn the witch." quote. One must insert whatever "Holy Grail" quote one can in whatever compacity possible. One just must!

[JoelDali]

I never said anything about burning witches. I'd hate to see anyone burn or even melt for that matter. That is terrible and cruel.

Cyndi's analagy of letting things go with her hubby makes alotta sense.

The original high level player thread was not disparaging at all. I have yet to see one person's life deeply affected by the paperweight conspiracy. It seems its affected those without a life the most, such is the work great minds and great artists. Those who can do, those who can't - talk.

[mtommer]

See what I mean....

"A witch, a witch, burn the witch!"

Dam you JoelDali, dam you sir!

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Well, people can take pride in a clod of dirt, too.

As you correctly say, "striving and achieving your best" is a noble occupation.

The part you wrote about winning, though . . . . That I'm not so sure about.

What I mean is this. Say you are playing tournaments and not winning any matches but are having competitive results against higher-level players. No paperweights for you. Far from it, in fact.

Is that "striving and achieving your best?" I ask, because I think it is in some sense. Yet I think I am in the minority on that around here.

...but:

- There's nothing wrong with a clod of dirt, or taking pride in it, either. I live in Farm Country, Colorado, where dirt is a noble thing, if for no other reason than it is part of the equation, along with hard work, that feeds a nation.

- I'm no longer of the philosophy that winning is the most important thing, or the only thing. That's a personal choice, there's plenty of people around who firmly believe that winning is the only thing. I'm not trying to convert them. I go by the Rudyard Kipling quote at Wimbledon:

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
.
.
.
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!"

So that's just what I believe.

- Which leads to winning, being competitive, and what the grounding philosophy of that is. Mine is simple:

1 - Always do my best.

2 - Believe in myself.

3 - Play fair, and respect the competition. He, she, or they care as much about this as I do, and are trying just as hard to do the best possible.

4- Have fun, somehow.

5 - If I do 1 through 4, without fail, the results will take care of themselves, and they'll be whatever they are supposed to be.

So that's what I believe, in this discussion. I'm not trying to convert anyone else, or compare, contrast, or criticize my philosophy vs. anyone else's. This is just the way I live, on and off a tennis court, everyone else's mileage may vary...

[Cindysphinx]

Topaz and "Jesus-Tap-Dancing-Christ-Drakulie" both ask why I started this thread. Topaz deserves an answer.

I started it for the very same reason Gameboy started his thread about aspirational players: To distract the people who wish to hound Jolly and drag every thread about the TFM/Jolly bet into the mud. Think of it as throwing chum into the water, if you like that visual. Gameboy and I chose different vehicles, and I hoped this thread would turn into a thoughtful discussion about the importance of trophies. For the most part, it did, IMHO.

I kinda thought that was obvious and there was no need to spell it out, but there you have it.

Skiracer, you have an admirable and pure outlook on the place sports should have in our lives. It is refreshing, to say the least.

[Ripper014]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

This is the crux of the matter, I think.

Yes, anyone here can say anything. Point conceded. So why do I care if you raise this point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Because it has a chilling effect, Topaz.

If you and others continue to dredge this stuff up and keep it alive, it has an effect on the board. Consider TFM's original bet thread and the couple of others about the bet that were deleted. Jolly actually posted on one of those threads. Me, I was happy about that. I *want* to know how things are going for him in his own words. I'd like to hear about his opponents, what he thinks he needs to do to improve. I am genuinely interested.

If folks are going to stalk him (and yes, I think the "discussion" has risen to the level of stalking), then he isn't going to contribute and the discussion of his tennis exploits has been chilled. Instead of hearing how Jolly's last match went, I get to read how folks are *still* carrying a grudge about Jolly's posts. This is tiresome and frustrating for someone like me who would simply like to discuss tennis in a pleasant environment.

You know, I have been married almost 20 years now. I can assure you that my husband has said things and done things that I thought were rude. Do I raise these things over and over? No, I do not. Sure, I might get some perverse pleasure out of rubbing his face in it, needling him, giving him the business, setting the record straight. At some point, I have to *let it go already.* It is better for me, it is better for him, it is better for us.

Wouldn't you agree with me that it would be better for you, for Jolly, and for the innocent bystanders like me at TW if everyone just laid down their weapons? You know, forgive and forget? Be the bigger person? Take the high road? Is that really so hard?

There.

I have said my piece, made my position clear, explained myself as best I can. I will now lead by example, as it were. I simply won't respond if the Jolly Truth Squad keeps raising this stuff. I think it would be better if we all just Moved On. Whether you choose to do the same is entirely up to you.

None of us are innocent...

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by JoelDali

The original high level player thread was not disparaging at all.

Yes, it was/is. Does it have an affect on people's lives where they are deeply affected or it will somehow change their life in a dramatic fashion? NO.

However, even though all of us (the TW community) don't know one another on a personal level, or even know what a poster looks like, their is still a level of trust established between posters. Their is a lot of good and bad information passed on this board. Who you will beleive is dependent on the level of trust that person has established and how much weight you put into that person's post. Fact is, he lied, and has been posting under the pretense of that lie since he joined this "community", and has yet to set the record straight, including once again putting down what he considers "lower level players", while at the same time trying to make himself out to be better or at a higher level than them.

J may very well be a great person, I have no doubt as I have met him and am glad I had that experience. However, he is dead wrong on this issue, and has lost all TRUST I had put in him before I found out the truth, and in finding out that truth, finding out how badly he was putting down other's accomplishments.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Topaz and "Jesus-Tap-Dancing-Christ-Drakulie" both ask why I started this thread. Topaz deserves an answer.

I started it for the very same reason Gameboy started his thread about aspirational players: To distract the people who wish to hound Jolly and drag every thread about the TFM/Jolly bet into the mud. Think of it as throwing chum into the water, if you like that visual. Gameboy and I chose different vehicles, and I hoped this thread would turn into a thoughtful discussion about the importance of trophies. For the most part, it did, IMHO.

I kinda thought that was obvious and there was no need to spell it out, but there you have it.

Skiracer, you have an admirable and pure outlook on the place sports should have in our lives. It is refreshing, to say the least.

...but before you elect me to sainthood, I am only pure and admirable until the after race party. Then, it's time for Upside Down Margaritas, The Antler Dance, and High Speed Donuts in the parking lot in the Batmobile...as described in the following:

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/snownews...ws-2003Feb.pdf

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles...6-03-Goals.pdf

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles...-03-Hotbox.pdf

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles...-10-DayJob.pdf

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Ripper014

None of us are innocent...

Yes, some of us *are* innocent. I'd say the percentage of innocents here hovers around 99%.

If you are willing to forgive and forget, if you are genuinely interested in the tennis adventures of others, if you can grasp how none of this is good for the board and that a whole lot of people are *well and truly sick of it* . . . .then you are innocent. IMHO.

[Bagumbawalla]

Well, it looks like this thread has gone somewhere strange, but for what it's worth, I see nothing wrong with paperweights. Paperweights can be better than trophise. People collect paperweights and some of them are worth quite a bit (thousands of dollars), others collect the sort of paperweight that is like a souvenir of some special moment.

Personally, rather than a tee shirt, plaque, dust-catching trophy, set of tumblers with the club logo, platter, gift certificate to the pro shop, and all that stuff, I would rather get an actual paperweight- hand blown, Venitian glass, signed, (about the size of a tennis ball with a slice taken off).

Problem solved trophy=paperweight.

Still, money would be best.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If you are willing to forgive and forget, if you are genuinely interested in the tennis adventures of others, if you can grasp how none of this is good for the board and that a whole lot of people are *well and truly sick of it* . . . .then you are innocent. IMHO.

And you are far from one of them.

[JoelDali]

Before I moved to the east coast my dad and I were contemplating all the boxed up possessions of mine being shipped and those that stayed behind at our winter compound in the Rockies.

One of the boxes contained a truckload of my Junior tennis trophies. Up to the age of 12 I was a feared sandbagger on the Ventura County junior circuit. I won every boys 10/12 and under tournament in the same region that Sam Querrey grew up in for 3 years straight in a hotbed of tennis. These were big trophies, the 3 footers. They were pretty damn impressive on my wall growing up. And I loved them, I loved winning them. I think I amassed about 30 to 40 trophies from all the major clubs in the region. I especially loved winning the Ojai Satellite tournament being it had the most prestige amongst the top juniors in Ventura County. I'll never forget playing against my friend Todd in the final with a huge crowd watching, clapping, gasping and cheering our epic 3 setter that I ended up winning. That win landed me a berth in the SCTA Sectionals in Whittier that year where I promptly got dubble bageled to a very famous guy that now coaches WTA.

We were good. We were damn good. We battled like hell in those tournaments. My paperweight from the Santa Barbara junior open when I lost to an 11 year old Michael Chang was a purpleish hue and was my most devastating loss, and was the big wake up call that I didn't have the support and commitment that Betty Chang had for her kids. Andre says he hated it but my ultimate dream would be a dad that demanded I played tennis and not go to school. What a life. What a perfect childhood. I'll take that dragon any damn day Mike. You sir, were a blessing from God.

Around 1989 before my folks moved Sin City(tm) I lost the fervor for the tennis trophies and lost touch with that segment of my life. They eventually became forgotton and replaced with the newfound love for Rush, TS Eliot, Yes, and Led Zeppelin; coupled with combing the beaches of Southern California in search of truth, tasty waves and blonde frosted honey babes. I went a good 10 years of never thinking of those trophies. There was no love for tennis for many, many years. While kids that I beat as a junior went on to Pepperdine, Cal Lutheran, USC and UCLA to play tennis, I was soul searching and harboured resentment that my tennis career was mangled and lost in the midst of total disfunctional family drama, death and Betrayal(tm).

I had completely forgot about those 3 foot high paperweights. Years later I learned that my stepmother who was under the slow croaking hands of cancer had kept them for me for 15+ years after she died in 1999. I took them to my next destination and put them up in a room and looked at them with proud honor. For a period of my life I was GOAT. I was good. I was damn good. I was rewarded with sick hardware and number 1 rankings that made me damn proud.

And so, in the Summer of 2006 my father and I sent all my moving boxes to the east coast in preparation for my new life angering people on Wall Street. In a moment of perverse recklessness, I picked up the boxes of tennis trophies and I dumped them in the Waste Management bin next to my fathers company's parking lot. I dumped all those paperweights: the one from Ojai, the one from 1000 Oaks, the one from Santa Barbara, the one from Pierpont and the ones from Westlake Village and the one from Westshore. I dumped them all and now, lately, after taking up tennis again the past few years and getting 3 or 4 trophies for meaningless NTRP tourneys, I'd give anything to have those symbols of that beautiful era of junior GOAT glory, I'd give anything to have those damn paperweights back. Damn me for throwing them away. They were marvelous. They were beautiful. I earned them. Every damn one of them. The hours and hours and hours hitting on that backboard on Triunfo Canyon Road were rewarded. The journey for paperweights lives on as a crippled old NTRP freak with an insatiable love for 85 square inch box beams, junk food, and cheap gut.