Help me to improve my serve!

[pvaudio]

Hey guys, it's time for another help PV Audio with his serve thread. Last time around was over 6 months ago and as I was learning and improving my new technique, school started again and in this case, 400 level EE courses are a bit more important than fixing my serve. So, for the past months I've been stuck in limbo with a mediocre serve and just last weekend I got around to going out and hitting serves for two hours. I realized that I couldn't go back to the way that I changed it this past summer (up together to racquet drop) and have decided to go back to the up together method, but improve it. It feels decently solid; there are some serves that just feel perfect and theres those that feel good, but simply don't compare to the aforementioned ones. So I'm back again looking for critique of my mechanics to get my pace up and my accuracy back. Note that I do realize I foot fault in just about every video; I only realize that now and it's one of the problems that comes with wearing size 14 Barricades , so I'll make sure to take note that next time. Critique away!

I've included the prior video for comparison purposes only to show you what I changed. The newest one is first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXj8RIdlIG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbSdunVwvw

-Dave

[LeeD]

Looking good so far...
If you want more pace, maybe more sideways prep stance and keep your toss hand higher for longer, to get the archer's bow in your hips.
Nice swing, good forward movement into court.
I assume you're around average height. Most guys below 6' adopt a pinpoint style of serving, to get more pace with their shorter wingspans.
Up to you, platform is more consistent, but slightly less power....great for the big tall guys who have surplus power and lack some control.

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Looking good so far...
If you want more pace, maybe more sideways prep stance and keep your toss hand higher for longer, to get the archer's bow in your hips.
Nice swing, good forward movement into court.
I assume you're around average height. Most guys below 6' adopt a pinpoint style of serving, to get more pace with their shorter wingspans.
Up to you, platform is more consistent, but slightly less power....great for the big tall guys who have surplus power and lack some control.

I remember you telling me last time that my shoulders looked like I was imitating Navratilova because my rear shoulder didn't drop enough

Has that improved, and if it hasn't, how can I do it? Every time I try to exaggerate it, I end up tossing the ball too far behind me to make it useful. So essentially, if I can get the shoulder drop down (which would make the "bow") how do I get the toss still out in front without literally tossing it out into the court?

[Jonny S&V]

To be perfectly honest, unless you get to the ball too late with the old motion and make contact too low, I like your old motion better (with the split of the arms). I feel like you get a better rhythm this way. I'm not a fan nor an advocate of both arms go up at the same time.

Also, as LeeD has already pointed out, you might try coiling your body a bit more, turn a bit more sideways.

[LeeD]

High hitting shoulder is not a BAD thing, it does take away some power at the expense of consistency. I could use a dose of both, so which should I adopt?
And I agree with JohnnyS/V. You don't need ONE kind of service motion, as we are all different. Use what produces a maximum speed serve, with replicability.

[pvaudio]

Anyone else have any suggestions to offer? Haven't been out to hit again yet

[tricky]

Hey pvaudio, what kind of pace are you getting on your serves? 105-110?

Looks like you've switched to an abbreviated service motion. In an abbreviated service, you want to toss the ball without letting your arm drop prior (i.e. no "J toss.")

Torso is opening up too quickly. Ideally, it should stay closed as you go into the racquet drop. That's usually a sign that forward momentum is not there at some point in your windup. In your case, when your service arm separates, you want to start pushing off the balls of your back foot. .

The One Foot Drill will take care of this nicely. Put your arms together. Then stand on your back foot and execute your service motion, finishing on the front foot.

[spacediver]

i'm not really in a position to make confident judgments, as am still learning how to serve, but a couple things I noticed that I think you are failing to do (according to Pat Dougherty's prescriptions at least) are:

1) not stretching the hip flexors by getting into that limbo position

2) chest plane should be oriented differently - right now it seems as if you were to draw a line directly out of your chest it would be parallel to the ground, but it should be pointing up at the target.

Then again, perhaps you are doing these things correctly and my eye is not experienced enough to pick up on them.

[cesarmo03]

i noticed you are only showing us your first serve, but if you want to win the game you need to show us your second serve, you cant win a match only with power serve.

try to toss the ball a lighter bit higher it will make you more relaxed and dont have a rush serve, or is that what you want?

[charliefedererer]

It appears you have great athleticism and the foundation for a great serve.

It appears you could improve on two things:

#1. more of a "bow shape" in your trophy pose, with a raised front shoulder and pushing your front hip forward into the court

#2. more pronatioin on your serve by hitting with a slightly bent elbow at contact, and finishing with your elbow high

To achieve #1
In order to "serve up the mountain" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
you've got to push that front hip forward as you go into your trophy pose: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/vide...-when-serving/ (If you don't lead with the hip, there is no way you can coil down and still maintain your balance with a high front shoulder as you go into your trophy pose.)

To improve #2
To get more speed on the ball you need a faster and more pronounced pronation motion. That means striking the ball with the elbow slightly bent, and ending with your elbow pointing up and your racquet pointing down. Jim McLellan from tennisone.com explains how to achieve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYF...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6bLABbebc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu7ihHI-l8

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by cesarmo03

i noticed you are only showing us your first serve, but if you want to win the game you need to show us your second serve, you cant win a match only with power serve.

try to toss the ball a lighter bit higher it will make you more relaxed and dont have a rush serve, or is that what you want?

No, actually that's exactly what I DON'T want. The best serves are the ones that feel like is a fluid motion with no wasted energy, while the ones with good feel do feel a bit rushed. You think a higher ball toss would be useful?

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by tricky

Hey pvaudio, what kind of pace are you getting on your serves? 105-110?

Looks like you've switched to an abbreviated service motion. In an abbreviated service, you want to toss the ball without letting your arm drop prior (i.e. no "J toss.")

Torso is opening up too quickly. Ideally, it should stay closed as you go into the racquet drop. That's usually a sign that forward momentum is not there at some point in your windup. In your case, when your service arm separates, you want to start pushing off the balls of your back foot. .

The One Foot Drill will take care of this nicely. Put your arms together. Then stand on your back foot and execute your service motion, finishing on the front foot.

The fastest I've ever hit was a 124 on a Bushnell handheld gun (which is only accurate for small objects up to 110) this past summer using the old motion. Note that I emphasized that's on a handheld gun, which can have a significant margin for error. The fastest verified speed I've hit was back when I was 16 and in a serving contest at the RCA Championships down in Indy and put up a 111 on their actual sports radar. That's the last time I've ever gotten it clocked since I don't really care that much about numbers so long as it does its purpose.


So probably somewhere in the middle, but this motion doesn't have the pace of the one in the second video, so I'd say your estimate is correct that at this time, probably about 110.

Also note that the serve motion when I was 16 was COMPLETELY different and I got a large amount of pace by using my shoulder improperly. As a result, there is so much scar tissue from rotator cuff damage that I can't touch the small of my back with my right hand.

I will definitely try that out this weekend though, it makes sense!

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by cesarmo03

i noticed you are only showing us your first serve, but if you want to win the game you need to show us your second serve, you cant win a match only with power serve.

try to toss the ball a lighter bit higher it will make you more relaxed and dont have a rush serve, or is that what you want?

My second serve, when the motion is on, is really pretty good if I do say so myself. Maybe my sister will come in here and give her viewpoint from across the net, but it's the same motion, just a topspin with the slightest bit of kick. Improper kick serve motion along with bad shoulder mechanics destroyed my shoulder twice, so I don't use a kick serve anymore unless I'm playing doubles and on the ad side. Otherwise, it's just a full pace topspin serve that is very reliable.

[pvaudio]

For example, at 1:10, I can't look at the screen because it makes me cringe (the lemans23 comment there is also me...if you didn't realize from my videos haha) because that's exactly what ended up destroying my shoulder: over supination of the shoulder joint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYFra60Q0

[heretoserve]

Nice to see some one that's actually palm down.

I would try to focus less on knee bend and more on knee flexion. Players knees bend to assist in coiling the upper body. Turning your shoulders more will allow your elbow to travel further. The most important factor in generating racquet head speed.

I would also toss a little further out in front. Your pretty stalky so your toss should be out further than most.

Here's my serve if it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by freedomtennis

holy shi-t thats fast

Hahaha it caught me so off guard I made the face in real life. I was like "what the hell is this possibly going to be-HOLY FU** where'd that come from?"

[cesarmo03]

Originally Posted by pvaudio

No, actually that's exactly what I DON'T want. The best serves are the ones that feel like is a fluid motion with no wasted energy, while the ones with good feel do feel a bit rushed. You think a higher ball toss would be useful?

you can toss the ball really high and dont need to waste energy or stop the service motion you only need a good timing on how you toss the ball my example is berdych

[cesarmo03]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

It appears you have great athleticism and the foundation for a great serve.

It appears you could improve on two things:

#1. more of a "bow shape" in your trophy pose, with a raised front shoulder and pushing your front hip forward into the court

#2. more pronatioin on your serve by hitting with a slightly bent elbow at contact, and finishing with your elbow high

To achieve #1
In order to "serve up the mountain" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
you've got to push that front hip forward as you go into your trophy pose: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/vide...-when-serving/ (If you don't lead with the hip, there is no way you can coil down and still maintain your balance with a high front shoulder as you go into your trophy pose.)

To improve #2
To get more speed on the ball you need a faster and more pronounced pronation motion. That means striking the ball with the elbow slightly bent, and ending with your elbow pointing up and your racquet pointing down. Jim McLellan from tennisone.com explains how to achieve this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYF...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6bLABbebc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu7ihHI-l8

great videos!!

[pvaudio]

I will have a new video up this evening after looking at some pros' serves. I'll point out what I tried to change.

[Djokovicfan4life]

Originally Posted by cesarmo03

you can toss the ball really high and dont need to waste energy or stop the service motion you only need a good timing on how you toss the ball my example is berdych

If you're used to a quicker rhythm and your service motion is fairly quick I really don't see any reason to adopt a high ball toss. Problems dealing with the wind alone make me glad I don't have a high one. But then again, I live in Oklahoma.