Acceptable number of double faults?

[LeeD]

Wake up, SPOT...
We say you should be ABLE to serve 3 sets without double faulting. That doesn't mean you CHOOSE TO PUSH every serve in, you can sometimes go for something beyond your normal second serve.....and then run the risk of a double fault, because you're going for MORE.
If you are not ABLE to serve 50 serves without a double fault, your second serve if FAULTY.

[Steady Eddy]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Sorry Charlie, the data you seek doesn't bear out the advice you give.

When analysed in the manner you propose, statisticians note: "The tactic of serving two first serves works best when the server is winning less than half the second serves and more than 70% of good first serves. There were at least 33 matches and possibly as many as 60 matches at Wimbledon this year where two first serves would have worked better than one first and one second.

But, but,...what you put in bold is the point I was making! The OP's question about an "acceptable number of double faults" will vary according to circumstances. There's not one size that fits all. Sometimes, a strategy likely to yield zero doubles is NOT the way to go.

Originally Posted by LeeD

SteadyEddy...
You are forgetting one very important factor.....
The first first serve is done under moderate pressure.
The Second first serve is done under extreme pressure, and the ball will not go in nearly the same percentage as the first first serve.
I assume, as a fellow tennis player, you know this, but forgot all about mental pressure affecting your service motion.

Maybe. If the coach's words "Never double fault" are playing in the back of his mind, that could easily mess with his serve. But if a coach gives the green light for going for it on 2nd serve, sometimes, he might feel ok going for it.

My own view is the advice, "Get your second serve in, even if you have to push it in." is better advice at the lower levels, like in the juniors. At higher levels they eat up safe serves so much that the "safe" serve isn't really that safe, and no one notices this.

Same thing happens in football, coaches say that running is the way to go. At the lower levels, the QB can't throw and his receivers drop lots of passes. But at the pro level the QB is very accurate and the hands of the receiver are sure. But they don't notice this, and in vain they keep it on the ground like the '67 Packers. Sports people!

[spot]

Wake up Lee- having the goal of never double faulting is just as ridiculous as having the goal of never hitting an unforced error. Sure you could have that as a goal but you would be missing a whole lot of other opportunities.

Having the goal of never doublefaulting to me is absolutely ridiculous. People just have an easier time recognizing the points you lose by putting the ball into the net on a second serve than they do the ones the receiver puts away because of a weak second serve in the middle of the box. Most players could virtually eliminate their doublefaults by only trying to put the ball into the middle of the box everytime but to me thats not at all a worthy goal.

[LeeD]

Actually, for a tennis player, you completeley missed the point.
NOBODY ever said you should never double fault.
Nope, instead, we said you should have the ability to hit 50 out of 50 second serves IN, and CAN play sets without doublefaulting if you so choose!
Get it?
Prolly not. Too dense and one track minded, you are.

[Steady Eddy]

Originally Posted by spot

Wake up Lee- having the goal of never double faulting is just as ridiculous as having the goal of never hitting an unforced error. Sure you could have that as a goal but you would be missing a whole lot of other opportunities.

Having the goal of never doublefaulting to me is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, the double fault losses the point, but so does any error after the point has begun. Why be so much more afraid of making an error serving than any other time? I think the answer is when we begin tennis, we double fault so often that we obsess about it. We get the unrealistic, (and too timid), idea that we should play the second serve as safe as possible. This is probably only the best option against a rank beginner, (who won't return ANY kind of serve). The higher up you go, the more those timid serves will get you in trouble.

[LeeD]

SteadyEddy...
You and SPOT should play a set against each other....at very low levels.
You both hit out on your second serves, doublefaulting constantly, but hitting some nice unreturnables too.
Makes for bad tennis at any level.

[Steady Eddy]

Originally Posted by spot

Most players could virtually eliminate their doublefaults by only trying to put the ball into the middle of the box everytime but to me thats not at all a worthy goal.

Also, what no one has mentioned is the role the first serve plays in double faults. After all, the more often your first serve goes in, the less doubles you'll have. It's not only up to the second serve. Get your first serve in more often and you'll put less pressure on your second. I think your first serve should go in 50% of the time. If it's going in less than that, take something off it. Some guys have first serves that go in like 10% of the time. Even if it's unreturnable, that won't play much of a role in the match because of its low frequency.

[spot]

NOBODY ever said you should never double fault

Huh? What are you talking about?

Ideally, you want zero double faults.

The simple answer, as Lee D says, to how many DFs are acceptable is "none"

once you reach a level of 4.0 a double fault should not even enter your mind

Seems to me there are a lot of people saying that you shouldn't ever double fault.

[Steady Eddy]

Originally Posted by LeeD

SteadyEddy...
You and SPOT should play a set against each other....at very low levels.
You both hit out on your second serves, doublefaulting constantly, but hitting some nice unreturnables too.
Makes for bad tennis at any level.

Who said anything about that? If your first and second serve each go in 75% of the time, you'll only double fault about one in sixteen points. That's only about two to three times per set. Yeah, that's not ZERO times, but 3 points in a set isn't very significant.

[Steady Eddy]

Originally Posted by spot

Seems to me there are a lot of people saying that you shouldn't ever double fault.

Yep, and they're wrong.

[LeeD]

Not really getting on you two guy's cases, but you have to understand.....
NOBODY said you should never double fault.
We said you should be able to hit second serves IN 100% of the time IF YOU DECIDE TO! Do you understand the difference?
I'm a bad falling 4.0, can hit second serve twists out wide duece court 10 out of 10 tries, can hit topspin second serve wide, into the body, or wide left 50 out of 50 tries, can hit sliced lefty out wides ad court 70% of the tries, and all with a much faster swing than any of my first flat serves.
That's a bad 4.0 serve, lefty, with an audible humming sound and an oval ball.
If you plan to be better, you'd better at least have an equal serve.

[Cindysphinx]

I agree with Steady and Spot. Errors happen. DFs happen.

What I have noticed is that players who push their serve in so they can get it in DF as much or almost as much as someone who goes for more. This is because they DF for the same reasons I do: Wind, sun, pressure.

In a recent match, I played two ladies who pushed their first and second serves into the box. As the match grew more tense, they missed some second serves. By the time that match ended, I suspect they had the same number of DFs as I did. The difference was that I had more service winners to balance my DFs, whereas they did not.

So how many DFs are acceptable, IMHO?

One less than the number that would cost you the match.

[spot]

Lee- I jsut posted a bunch of quotes saying that DF's should never happen. And I am just syaing thats ridiculous.

Lee- it seems to me you are arguing over a different point that I am not making. I think every player could decide to get virtually 100% of their second serves in if thats all they care about- to me thats absolutely ridiculous and they should be going for more on their second serve even if it means they occasionally double fault.

And I just posted several quotes of people saying you should never double fault.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by spot

For the people who think that zero doublefaults shoudl be the goal- do you also think that zero unforced errors should be the goal?

I think that having the skill level to be able to hit zero UEs is a goal. It is likely not optimal to lower your current level of play to get close to zero, but it is optimal to raise your prowess to the point where you can hit your current preferred stroke quality (or higher) and happen to not hit any UEs.

[LeeD]

Having the ability to never double fault is different from never doublefaulting during a match.
A match, should you so choose, you can go for more. And maybe DF sometimes. But having the ABILITY to hit your second serve into the box, wide left, wide right, into the body, and different spins and depth, is a given. You need this skill.
Errors are YOUR DUMB MISTAKE!
Say on match point, you double fault trying to get it in. IT"S YOUR FAULT! You did not practice enough to be able to avoid double faults.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Steady Eddy

But, but,...what you put in bold is the point I was making! The OP's question about an "acceptable number of double faults" will vary according to circumstances. There's not one size that fits all. Sometimes, a strategy likely to yield zero doubles is NOT the way to go.

I agree with you (as do tennis statisticians). The hard part is, it is an unlikely scenario, statistically and the only way to be confident that you happen to be in this unusual circumstance is after numerous points have been played (to give you the data that today is one of those days) so by the time you figure it out, the match outcome may be a forgone conclusion.

I do support such a midmatch re-evaluation though. It is not something I currently do, but after this discussion I will add it to my matchplay strategy.

BTW my post which you originally commented on (#55) was to say that you should have the skill level to hit zero DFs but you should choose to hit higher risk second serves if your standard second serve is being punished, so we are in agreement.

[LeeD]

Yes, we all should be able to serve 3 sets without ever DF'ing, but we can choose to hit harder and more precisely placed second serves IF WE SO DESIRE!
That means we CAN hit 50 out of 50 second serves IN.
Whether we choose to or not depends on OUR OWN CHOICES....not errors, not mistakes, but OUR CHOICE of going for more.
You need the basic skills before you push to the next level

[skiracer55]

...which is basically that you play tennis on the court, not on an Excel spreadsheet. Venus Williams often makes a ton of errors, and when she does, sometimes she wins, and sometimes she loses. If she were a young player and I were coaching her, I'd probably try to work on her strokes and her tactics so that she could *consistently* hit winners or force errors and not make a ton of errors. At this point in her career, there's no point in try to fix what really isn't broken. Nobody wins every match, and that includes Venus Williams. She needs to continue to play aggressively, and go for her shots. Some days, they'll all go in, and she'll turf her opponent. Other days, she won't be feeling it, and she'll make a ton of errors...but that doesn't mean she'll lose.

Go back an look at post #1. IMHO, that's too many doubles. But nobody asked the question, "Well, did you win the match or not?" If you want to look at stats, the only thing that matters is who won the last point. There's a million different ways of getting there, and one of them is to serve well and not hit a lot of doubles. But it's not the only way...

[polski]

You should be able to make over 50% of your first serves and over 90% of your second serves. If you double 2 or 3 times a set, you're probably not losing points that you wouldn't have lost anyway.

Regardless, double faulting will happen & should happen. It's a sign of how aggressive you play. At a 4.0 level, you need to do something with the 2nd other than tap it in...you won't hold serve & win many matches doing that.

[LeeD]

I'm 4.0.
Maybe YOU tap your second serves in.
I swing fully 20% FASTER on my second serve swing, hit the ball oval and hissing, can place it forehand, backhand, or into the body...and get it in 98% of the time...if I play more than once a week. If I play once a month, maybe 90%.
I can CHOOSE to crush it 90 mph with topspin, but percentage on pressured seconds go down to maybe 70%, not acceptable unless it solicits a weak return.
Normal second twists around 60 mph.
Normal second tops around 75.
Normal first flats around 115.