Self Rates being watched closely

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by gunnd5000

AHAHAHA the USTA are on par with the LTA for missuse of funds and disorganisation

Don't you sometimes think that a bunch of drunk guys shooting darts and writing down their notes on bar napkins with beers in hand could come up with a better set of rules?

J

[Xisbum]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

Don't you sometimes think that a bunch of drunk guys shooting darts and writing down their notes on bar napkins with beers in hand could come up with a better set of rules?

J

Amen, bro, amen.

[Munj]

Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by Munj

Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.

Assuming his opponents were 4.0 rated, then, yes, I would think you are correct. In addition, if his opponents in the 4.5 level are all 4.5 rated, then at least 2 and probably all 3 4.5 matches should be strikes as well. If his wins are against 3.5s playing up at 4.0, then it's not as clear.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Munj

Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.

In his win against the 4.0 DQ'd to 4.5, he actually won less games than his opponent (7 to 9), so the rating differential puts his opponent above him.

In the other wins, it could be he is borderline 4.5 playing against weak 4.0s and/or 3.5s playing up. In the 4.5 matches, he could be playing competitive matches against weak 4.5s and/or 4.0s playing up. Its hard to say. I'd say regardless he is probably close to being DQ'd. Maybe it will happen soon.

[BlueTennis]

There have been three 3-strike DQ's in my 3.5 league this season. Each of the DQ's was a singles player from three different teams. It's quite interesting to hear this is going on everywhere.

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by raiden031

In his win against the 4.0 DQ'd to 4.5, he actually won less games than his opponent (7 to 9), so the rating differential puts his opponent above him.

In the other wins, it could be he is borderline 4.5 playing against weak 4.0s and/or 3.5s playing up. In the 4.5 matches, he could be playing competitive matches against weak 4.5s and/or 4.0s playing up. Its hard to say. I'd say regardless he is probably close to being DQ'd. Maybe it will happen soon.

The guy who got DQ'd from our team got his strikes playing against 2 3.5 bump ups from last year and a guy who hasn't won a match at 4.0 in 4 years. In other words, weak 4.0s. So, it appears that the algorithm puts more weight on margin of victory than it does rating differential. With all those lopsided wins, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet for this guy unless those guys are actually 3.5s playing up.

[JT_2eighty]

This is my first year playing USTA leagues. I've noticed more than half of the players on most of the teams are all self-rated. So, you have all these self-rate vs. self-rate matches. Is there a way to look up someone's dynamic rating during the season? With all these self-rate battles, I'm guessing DQ's will be harder to come by?

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by JT_2eighty

This is my first year playing USTA leagues. I've noticed more than half of the players on most of the teams are all self-rated. So, you have all these self-rate vs. self-rate matches. Is there a way to look up someone's dynamic rating during the season? With all these self-rate battles, I'm guessing DQ's will be harder to come by?

PLaying against self rated players cannot give you a strike until they have a dynamic rating. And no the USTA does not allow you to look up a dynamic rating.

[JT_2eighty]

Cool. Any idea how many non-self rate matches one needs to receive a dynamic rating? Will the system retroactively give a strike once all the S's get their D ratings?

What about a doubles pair with one self-rate and one computer-rated? Is it harder to get a strike from doubles?

The answers really are not that important, as I'll just keep playing and see what happens, but my first three doubles matches I've won were 6-3, 6-0 (against two self-rates), 6-2, 6-2 (against two self-rates), and 6-2, 6-1 (against 1 C and 1 S), so I'm thinking I may already be in the scope of the DQ machine, once all the S's get Dynamic ratings. Oh well, just looking to have fun, wherever that may be. All this USTA stuff can get confusing!

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by JT_2eighty

Cool. Any idea how many non-self rate matches one needs to receive a dynamic rating? Will the system retroactively give a strike once all the S's get their D ratings?

What about a doubles pair with one self-rate and one computer-rated? Is it harder to get a strike from doubles?

The answers really are not that important, as I'll just keep playing and see what happens, but my first three doubles matches I've won were 6-3, 6-0 (against two self-rates), 6-2, 6-2 (against two self-rates), and 6-2, 6-1 (against 1 C and 1 S), so I'm thinking I may already be in the scope of the DQ machine, once all the S's get Dynamic ratings. Oh well, just looking to have fun, wherever that may be. All this USTA stuff can get confusing!

Once you have one match against a C, B, or dynamically rated player, you will get a dynamic rating, so the "self-rated matches don't count" basically only lasts one match.

[netman]

We all underestimate our abilities. That is the major flaw in self-rating. Sure a few folks cheat, but the majority of self-rating errors has to do with lack of self-confidence and/or modesty.

-k-

[West Coast Ace]

Originally Posted by netman

We all underestimate our abilities. That is the major flaw in self-rating. Sure a few folks cheat, but the majority of self-rating errors has to do with lack of self-confidence and/or modesty.

You're entitled to your opinion. I know I don't buy that - nor will many on this board.

Tennis is a hard sport to handicap. It's nice to see that the USTA is finally doing more - bumping and DQ'ing - to try to keep things under control. After yrs of doing nothing and letting the anger build up.

[JT_2eighty]

Originally Posted by J_R_B

Once you have one match against a C, B, or dynamically rated player, you will get a dynamic rating, so the "self-rated matches don't count" basically only lasts one match.

Is it retroactive? Since the first two matches I had were against self-rates, and the same went for those self-rates, would it basically go: "as soon as one of these players gets a dynamic rating, then everyone they played against as well as their opponents who were all self-rated all receive a Dyn rating?"

[Darkhors]

To clarify some things really quick, the USTA does not base any bumping/DQ'ing on the actual score. As JRB said, you have to have a dynamic rating first before you can get a strike. Any matches that happen before that dynamic rating basically don't count towards your strikes. Each person has to achieve a dynamic rating themselves, so no, once a player gets a dynamic rating the other people he played before still may not have one.

The way the strike works is based on your dynamic rating, your opponents dynamic rating and the outcome (W/L). I think there may be one other thing that is added, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that's the basis for the strikes so take it fwiw. If you rate yourself correctly then you should be fine. I know that I was a 4.0 last year and because we made it to ******* Regionals, everyone on my team except for 2 players got bumped to 4.5. I won't be moving anytime soon, so I'm ok with that.

Best of luck this season,

DH

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by Darkhors

To clarify some things really quick, the USTA does not base any bumping/DQ'ing on the actual score. As JRB said, you have to have a dynamic rating first before you can get a strike. Any matches that happen before that dynamic rating basically don't count towards your strikes. Each person has to achieve a dynamic rating themselves, so no, once a player gets a dynamic rating the other people he played before still may not have one.

The way the strike works is based on your dynamic rating, your opponents dynamic rating and the outcome (W/L). I think there may be one other thing that is added, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that's the basis for the strikes so take it fwiw. If you rate yourself correctly then you should be fine. I know that I was a 4.0 last year and because we made it to ******* Regionals, everyone on my team except for 2 players got bumped to 4.5. I won't be moving anytime soon, so I'm ok with that.

Best of luck this season,

DH

The score does matter. The other element you are missing in the second paragraph is the margin of victory. In fact, the margin of victory is apparently very important in the algorithm. The guy who got DQ'd from our team played mostly weaker players at our level (4.0), but got bumped anyway because he lost only 2, 1, 1, and 2 games in those matches. Our captain called and complained saying that those guys were weak and that he could have beaten those guys that badly, too, but that doesn't make him a 4.5, which is a clever misdirection but doesn't change the fact that the guy who got bumped really is a 4.5. He signed up for a 4.5 team 2 weeks ago and won his first 4.5 singles match (against a guy who absolutely clobbered me in a non-USTA league match) 5 & 0.

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by West Coast Ace

You're entitled to your opinion. I know I don't buy that - nor will many on this board.

Tennis is a hard sport to handicap. It's nice to see that the USTA is finally doing more - bumping and DQ'ing - to try to keep things under control. After yrs of doing nothing and letting the anger build up.

I agree with netman. I think the vast majority of misratings are benign, more or less people being conservative about their abilities because they are unfamiliar with the structure.

I agree that the oversight is necessary and that midseason bumping is appropriate, but the reversal of the previous results is a little draconian, mostly because it doesn't even punish the guy who was bumped since he is no longer on the team or even in the league anymore, but rather it punishes the players who are still on the team and had nothing to do with the misrating.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by J_R_B

I agree that the oversight is necessary and that midseason bumping is appropriate, but the reversal of the previous results is a little draconian, mostly because it doesn't even punish the guy who was bumped since he is no longer on the team or even in the league anymore, but rather it punishes the players who are still on the team and had nothing to do with the misrating.

Actually I disagree. It should and does punish the captain more than anyone when a DQ occurs. It is their team and they care most about the team results, and they usually know exactly what they are doing when they recruit certain players. They (captains) are usually the biggest cheaters of all. The reversal of all matches is definitely where I think justice prevails.

[J_R_B]

Originally Posted by raiden031

Actually I disagree. It should and does punish the captain more than anyone when a DQ occurs. It is their team and they care most about the team results, and they usually know exactly what they are doing when they recruit certain players. They (captains) are usually the biggest cheaters of all. The reversal of all matches is definitely where I think justice prevails.

I'm sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. How does it punish the captain but not the other players? In a lot of the teams here, the captain is not even close to the best player on the team, and it is the rest of us busting our asses to win the matches only to have them reversed because someone the captain recruited to help us actually turned out to be too good. The captains find players who they think hit well or whatever, but you really don't know how good someone is until they play a couple matches under pressure, and then if it turns out that they are actually better than you thought, it can ruin your whole season. What kind of sense does that make? It's a bunch of BS. Again, it's fine to bump the players. In that case, the captain won't be able to use the player at states or sectionals, anyway, and that's exactly what the blatant cheaters recruit ringers for in the first place, but there is absolutely no reason to steal wins from the rest of the people that are the ones doing the hard work on the courts.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by J_R_B

I'm sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. How does it punish the captain but not the other players? In a lot of the teams here, the captain is not even close to the best player on the team, and it is the rest of us busting our asses to win the matches only to have them reversed because someone the captain recruited to help us actually turned out to be too good. The captains find players who they think hit well or whatever, but you really don't know how good someone is until they play a couple matches under pressure, and then if it turns out that they are actually better than you thought, it can ruin your whole season. What kind of sense does that make? It's a bunch of BS. Again, it's fine to bump the players. In that case, the captain won't be able to use the player at states or sectionals, anyway, and that's exactly what the blatant cheaters recruit ringers for in the first place, but there is absolutely no reason to steal wins from the rest of the people that are the ones doing the hard work on the courts.

I can't say I feel any pity for anyone that goes through this. Everyone knows it happens yet they all want to play dumb when it happens to them. I've never heard of a self-rated, appeal, or mixed-exclusive player who joins a team where everyone thinks they are at-level and then by surprise they are dominating the best players in the league and get DQ'd.