Making Defaults More Fair

[82300sd]

I think the problem is that your matches start at 9pm on a weeknight. The captain has no obligation to let you know in advance that they are defaulting a line. I agree with cghipp.

The extraneous stuff about driving 1.5 hours, anniversary, nurse that gets up early...sorry they were inconvenienced, but it doesn't buy any sympathy

[crystal_clear]

Why $17 per player per match? For renting the court? We paid around $30 for snack and drink for 14 matches.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by crystal_clear

Why $17 per player per match? For renting the court? We paid around $30 for snack and drink for 14 matches.

We play matches indoors. $17 is what court time costs around here.

[crystal_clear]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

We play matches indoors. $17 is what court time costs around here.

I see. Where are you Cindy? You don't play outdoors in summer time?

[Cindysphinx]

We (DC metro) play indoors year round. The weather here is too unpredictable for outdoor league play.

The other problem is the league is run by the county, and the county has two problems with trying to schedule things outdoors. First, there is no reservation system for the outdoor public courts, so you'd never be able to find 5 courts available for a league match. Second, there are only two county facilities and the rest are private clubs, so you have a capacity problem.

There are some outdoor leagues in other DC metro areas (DC, Northern Virginia), but the scheduling for rain make-ups is quite a nightmare. It is one of the reasons I can't make myself captain in those areas -- you spend a huge amount of time trying to wrestle with the weather. Then you finally get a reschedule and it rains again. It took my poor DC captain almost a month to get five matches rescheduled from late May.

So yeah, it costs $17 to play here. Then again, you know exactly when your match will begin and end, and the facilities are quite nice. Some even have A/C. No sun, no wind, no sunscreen, no rain delays, no puddles. Just play.

[rosenstar]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

We (DC metro) play indoors year round. The weather here is too unpredictable for outdoor league play.

So yeah, it costs $17 to play here. Then again, you know exactly when your match will begin and end, and the facilities are quite nice. Some even have A/C. No sun, no wind, no sunscreen, no rain delays, no puddles. Just play.

I'm nearby DC (closer to annap/baltimore) and I have to drop between $30 and $55 for an indoor court :-/ $17 is nothing to complain about.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Our league matches cost $17 per player per match. If a team defaults a court, they owe the other team $34 if it's doubles and $17 if it's singles. Captains are encouraged to notify the opposing captains in advance if there will be a default so that players don't waste time driving across town.

A few days ago, my 3.5 ladies team had a match against an undefeated opponent. The match was 9 pm on a weeknight. I had 8 players there ready to go.

I exchanged line-ups with the opposing captain and my players took the court. Opposing captain said nothing about any of her players being late. I was supposed to play Doubles Court Three. I get out there, and there is only one opponent. I asked her if her partner was coming. She said she didn't know.

We warm up and keep one eye on the clock. After a few minutes, I asked the opponent if she wanted to call the missing player, but she didn't. The opposing captain was on the next court warming up. She also declined my invitation to call the tardy player. Sure enough, no one ever came and we won by default.

What's the problem? The problem is that I suspect this captain knew full well she only had seven players but didn't want to tell us that in advance for strategic reasons. I suspect this because captains who genuinely believe a player is late will be on the phone frantically trying to reach them, not shrugging off inquiries as to her whereabouts.

What really burns me up is that my partner and I drove 1.5 hours round trip to play this match. Worse, we were shorthanded so my partner had to play this match on her 25th wedding anniversary, when she would obviously have preferred to spend it doing something else. I also had a singles player who hates weeknight matches because she is a nurse who has to get up at 5 in the morning, so getting home at 11:30 is a real hardship.

I think our league needs to do something about these late, strategic defaults, but I'm not sure what. Maybe the league should double the penalty whenever a default occurs and there has been no notice at least one hour beforehand of the default. Maybe if it cost a captain $68, she would think twice about inconveniencing players in hopes of obtaining a strategic advantage.

BTW, we won 3-2. Karma, maybe?

I like the idea of losing money for not showing up. That's fair. If you default the match, but notify the other team in advance, do you still get "fined?"

Your situation sucks, only thing I disagree with you is about the captain calling her players. Her players are adults and are responsible for their own actions. There's no need for her to stress out over other players. I think the penalty is fine. Maybe you should contact the player yourself and talk to her if you're so angry about it.

As far your conspiracy theory that this default was intentional, I don't see how a captain that wanted to win would intentionally default a match in an effort to win, that doesn't make sense. How would going into a match down 0-1 help her win, unless she was very confident that her team could win 3 of the remaining 4 matches.

[ssgator80]

Cindy - I'm with you on this. I dont play leagues - for reasons very similar to this - but if I'm traveling, I want to play tennis. I would be extremely ****ed off, if I traveled a distance to find out that the other team doesnt have enough players. To think that they knew in advanced, is very dis-respectful. We all have very busy lives - common courtesy demands a call as soon as they know and I dont care about who is going to win the match. I think you are correct in thinking they knew or had an idea the player wasnt showing - or they would have been on the phone.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by rosenstar

I'm nearby DC (closer to annap/baltimore) and I have to drop between $30 and $55 for an indoor court :-/ $17 is nothing to complain about.

It's $17/player for 2 hours. A doubles court is $34, a singles court is $17. It includes balls. It's something of a blended rate -- the county facilities are only $14/hour in the summer, so collecting $68 for a doubles match is a little high. Whatever. I think the rate is fair, particular considering what other recreation like golf costs these days.

I like the idea of losing money for not showing up. That's fair. If you default the match, but notify the other team in advance, do you still get "fined?"

As the rule stands right now, captains are "strongly encouraged" to notify opposing captains of defaults in advance. In all the matches I have played and captained, there have been only two cases where the captain clearly or probably knew of the default but didn't give advance notice. Already this season I have received advance notice of defaults twice, IIRC.

So we are definitely talking about a minority of captains who lack consideration for the time of others.

Our current rules state that the captains can agree to "waive" the penalty for a default. Normally, the defaulting team pays the costs of the other team ($34). The amount is transferred from the defaulting captain's deposit to the other captain's account.

The trouble is there is no reason to waive the penalty and it makes no sense to do so. My doubles players paid $17 each to play tennis for two hours. If the opponent doesn't show, my players still paid. The penalty reimburses them. If I agree to waive the penalty, my players would be pretty cheesed off. And no way am I going to eat $34 of expense. So the waiver provision isn't practical, and the defaulting captains don't even raise the subject.

The $50 penalty I am proposing would be something above the $34, and the captain could choose to waive it. In the case, I wouldn't waive it because I suspect something was rotten in Denmark.

Your situation sucks, only thing I disagree with you is about the captain calling her players. Her players are adults and are responsible for their own actions. There's no need for her to stress out over other players.

Here's another reason why I smell a rat.

I was captaining a match once, and we knew in advance that one guy would be coming all the way across town after work. It was raining. We knew he would be cutting it close and might not make it. We didn't notify the other team in advance and default, because he was going to try to make it.

Did we just exchange the line-up and say nothing? No, I told the opposing captain what the situation was and where my guy was (I called him on his cell, of course). This seemed to be the courteous thing to do. And of course I was hoping that my candor would perhaps encourage the opposing team to cut him a break if he came in a few minutes after the default time. (He did made it but incurred a tardiness penalty. He was so shaken that he and his partner lost the first set at love but won the match!).

As far your conspiracy theory that this default was intentional, I don't see how a captain that wanted to win would intentionally default a match in an effort to win, that doesn't make sense. How would going into a match down 0-1 help her win, unless she was very confident that her team could win 3 of the remaining 4 matches.

I don't think the default was intentional. I think the decision not to notify us in advance was intentional. I will keep this in mind when dealing with this captain in the future.

[cghipp]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I will keep this in mind when dealing with this captain in the future.

That's really the most important thing - to get a feel for who you're dealing with and act accordingly.

After many years captaining in the same leagues, I know who I can call in advance and say, "Hey, I'm short a person - do you have enough, and if not, do you want to reschedule that last line?" With some I might say, "Go ahead and redo your order if you need to get someone qualified or if someone would rather leave." I rarely have to forfeit a line, but we don't typically have a huge number of matches in each league, and only one default counts as a match played. So if a team is habitually forfeiting lines, it can cause problems for the other teams when they're trying to get players qualified.

In general, I think I am known as someone who is a very fair and honest opponent, and some people would say that I am too accommodating in some situations. I'm not usually in a hurry to take a default for tardiness, for example. In pretty much every situation, my players would rather settle things "on the field." On the other hand, some captains are just not trustworthy. If I admitted I was short a player, they would take a forfeit even if they were short two players. They would not reciprocate if I had a player running late, even if I had made allowances for them in a previous match. And for that they get no more than I am "legally" obligated to give them. (These captains are usually near the bottom of the league anyway, because good players don't want to put up with their BS any more than other captains do.)

I should add that it's certainly easier to be more forthcoming when you have a very strong team, which I was lucky to have the last couple of spring seasons. I do laugh at some of the captains and players who won't even have a normal conversation, for fear they will give something away about their lineup - as if I care who they are playing. My lineup is what it is, either way.

[markmdfw]

I agree there needs to be a penalty for defaults, cash and standings, I have arranged things and only got to play a number of times due to our large roster! I hate showing up and then not getting to compete due to my line being a default! I would like gas and paid since I plaid for a certain number of matches!

I am not sure the USTA really cares what it costs a little 3.5 / 4.0 player though!

Up to hearing you guys thoughts!

Marcus

[bodieq]

Originally Posted by markmdfw

I agree there needs to be a penalty for defaults, cash and standings, I have arranged things and only got to play a number of times due to our large roster! I hate showing up and then not getting to compete due to my line being a default! I would like gas and paid since I plaid for a certain number of matches!

I am not sure the USTA really cares what it costs a little 3.5 / 4.0 player though!

Up to hearing you guys thoughts!

Marcus

I don't understand a word of what you're saying...

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by bodieq

I don't understand a word of what you're saying...

He's saying he doesn't appreciate having his time wasted, I think.

[crystal_clear]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

We (DC metro) play indoors year round. The weather here is too unpredictable for outdoor league play.

The other problem is the league is run by the county, and the county has two problems with trying to schedule things outdoors. First, there is no reservation system for the outdoor public courts, so you'd never be able to find 5 courts available for a league match. Second, there are only two county facilities and the rest are private clubs, so you have a capacity problem.

There are some outdoor leagues in other DC metro areas (DC, Northern Virginia), but the scheduling for rain make-ups is quite a nightmare. It is one of the reasons I can't make myself captain in those areas -- you spend a huge amount of time trying to wrestle with the weather. Then you finally get a reschedule and it rains again. It took my poor DC captain almost a month to get five matches rescheduled from late May.

So yeah, it costs $17 to play here. Then again, you know exactly when your match will begin and end, and the facilities are quite nice. Some even have A/C. No sun, no wind, no sunscreen, no rain delays, no puddles. Just play.

Very true. Our captain had to arrange five make-up matches over three different dates.

[JavierLW]

You're area is fining teams $17 to $34. That's WAY more then most areas would do. (where you have no fine at all)

Regardless of whatever drama you put out there, that's probably more then sufficient.....

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by rosenstar

As far your conspiracy theory that this default was intentional, I don't see how a captain that wanted to win would intentionally default a match in an effort to win, that doesn't make sense. How would going into a match down 0-1 help her win, unless she was very confident that her team could win 3 of the remaining 4 matches.

Perhaps Cindy means the idea that if you let the other team know you are defaulting ahead of time, you are giving them ample time to rearrange their lineup to their best advantage.

For example if you had your 2nd best player at #2 Singles and you found out #2 Singles was getting defaulted you could stick that player elsewhere in the lineup.

If you wait until lineup's are exchange in most leagues you would not be allowed to make that switch.

Although that doesn't explain why they couldn't of at least let her know by the lineup change. Perhaps they just don't like her for some reason....

Teams should not default period as far as Im concerned. Any advantage you lose by letting the other captain know early is deserved. (and if you cant even get 8 people to show up and you're too lazy to get extra players to make up for that, then why care about that advantage anyway?)

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by JavierLW

Although that doesn't explain why they couldn't of at least let her know by the lineup change. [/b]Perhaps they just don't like her for some reason....[/b]

Yup, I'm sure that was it!!

[spiderman123]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I had 8 players there ready to go.

my players took the court.

Am I the only one there who imagines Cindy in a military hat shouting ATTEN-HUT, FORWARD MARCH... with all of Cindy's soldiers carrying their rackets like rifles and walking to the courts, walking in place at their respective courts until the last soldier has reached her court?

Anyone missing a beat has to do 10 push ups and gets a dedicated thread here.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by spiderman123

Am I the only one there who imagines Cindy in a military hat shouting ATTEN-HUT, FORWARD MARCH... with all of Cindy's soldiers carrying their rackets like rifles and walking to the courts, walking in place at their respective courts until the last soldier has reached her court?

Anyone missing a beat has to do 10 push ups and gets a dedicated thread here.

Nah. Picture instead 8 middle-aged women, all of them jockeying for position to get to the ladies room just before match time.

[polski]

I'm surprised the local league supports fines against the other teams. That seems harsh...who pays it? I would assume the captain gets stuck with it. I wouldn't want to captain under those conditions.

The only time I think there should be a fine is at states/sectionals/nationals. I traveled to states one time (90 miles), stayed in a hotel ($100), ate in restaurants ($30) and showed up for the 11AM Sunday match (3rd of group round robin) to be given a default @ #2 singles. I was mad. I wish it would have cost the other team $100 to forfeit the line to offset my expenses.

Even with that experience, I still don't think you need to notify in advance in local league matches. As cghipp stated, it gives the opposition an opportunity to play a stronger lineup. It may not be great sportsmanship to default, but it is an unfortunate part of league tennis.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by polski

I'm surprised the local league supports fines against the other teams. That seems harsh...who pays it? I would assume the captain gets stuck with it. I wouldn't want to captain under those conditions.

The only time I think there should be a fine is at states/sectionals/nationals. I traveled to states one time (90 miles), stayed in a hotel ($100), ate in restaurants ($30) and showed up for the 11AM Sunday match (3rd of group round robin) to be given a default @ #2 singles. I was mad. I wish it would have cost the other team $100 to forfeit the line to offset my expenses.

Even with that experience, I still don't think you need to notify in advance in local league matches. As cghipp stated, it gives the opposition an opportunity to play a stronger lineup. It may not be great sportsmanship to default, but it is an unfortunate part of league tennis.

Once again someone acts as if the playoff is more important then local league match.

There definately ought to be a fine because:

a) The Home team had to PAY for a court that is being un-used. You seem concerned about who pays for any outstanding cost, but HOW do you justify that the home team is getting screwed here??? (if the visitors defaulted)

b) The visiting team has to drive across town in some places, wasting time and effort and gas to go to a match that wont even be played. (why should they spend there $$$ when it's the other team that screwed up???)

c) One captain and team was responsible and made sure 8 people showed up. The other captain and team did not....

Forfeits should not be tolerated, they hurt quality of the league. Especially since the whole purpose of the league was supposed to be to get as many people involved in tennis as possible, not to just give a few teams a plastic pen....

If someone was to ever bail on me on my team at the last minute (without a VERY good reason) and caused us to default, they will simply never play for me again.

Maybe they paid their registration and that's "not fair", but that's just too bad, they obviously didnt have any regard for wasting 1 or 3 other person's time.

(or wasting my time if they expect that Im going to spend all day at work calling around to make sure we get a substitution)