Doubles in USTA league: Good, bad, and ugly

[Annika]

My daughter and I were just discussing who plays on which side best. And we both agree that the better player should play on the ad court. When I say better to me it means that they can do a variety of shots with their FH and have a steady BH. I think most players can return serves fairly well on the deuce court...so But then again I play more singles.

[tennislefty]

your what I call the "red flag player" too many.. " are you kidding me's?" like the guy who asked you if you were in a coma. Get real..anyone who says they completely "carry" their partners *** in a match is a joke. If you at any time remotely stepped on courts in the past with 4.5 /5.0 players then on a rusty time off from tennis you should be back in the 4.5 arena, real 4.5/5.0s dont want anyrthing to do with 3.5 players unless they are their coaches, 3.5 guys cant begin to play dubs with 4.5's, you were assigned with a 3.0 partner for a reason and may need a reality check.
as for who plays add and deuce side, backhands /forhands etc, etc etc...4.5'/5.0 dont have weak backhands etc...all this is a wash and makes no sense to good lefties who play with weak righties..

[Cindysphinx]

To OP:

I don't agree with your analysis.

Two up is the strongest formation, right? If your partner is at net (because you served or received), then I don't think you must stay back because you have a weak partner. What you (if you are truly the stronger player) should do is hit returns and serves and groundstrokes that are so awesome in their awesomeness that they cannot pick on your partner. As for your partner getting lobbed, obviously you can't close as much as you might like.

I dunno. It just sounds weird to me that you are being scolded for not coming to net. You should be coming to net, and players at the higher levels seem to do this. I just wonder if what is really happening is that you are hanging back for no good reason and your pro is trying to get you to stop doing that.

I have to admit to a personal bias, though. I don't like playing with partners who never, ever come in. So if I were in a clinic and the pro was telling my partner to come in and she wouldn't do it *even in practice*, then I would be very frustrated with her.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Annika

My daughter and I were just discussing who plays on which side best. And we both agree that the better player should play on the ad court. When I say better to me it means that they can do a variety of shots with their FH and have a steady BH. I think most players can return serves fairly well on the deuce court...so But then again I play more singles.

Yeah, I can see that.

Still, I think the best thing is to have the weaker player play whichever side they like best.

If the players are pretty even in skill, then I think it is important to put the strongest shots in the middle. Stronger overhead in the middle. Stronger volley in the middle. That sort of thing.

In mixed, I usually play deuce because my BH volley is often stronger than my partner's but his overhead is stronger than mine.

In ladies, I often play ad because my overhead is stronger and having my FH volley in the middle helps me with my approach volley and half volley.

I don't know that anyone has ever come up with a good rule for this, I guess . . . .

[spot]

I think that people overthing the ad/deuce thing. All that matters is which formation gives your team the best results when returning serve. Doesn't matter about consistent/inconsistent. Some people hit inside out well and some do not. Set up however it makes your teams returns of serve the best. Its just math- if you are winning more points then you are going to have the ad in your favor far more often and it won't matter who is the more consistent player.

We have a girl on the women's team who thinks she knows better than the coach because she knows the right way to play and isn't willing to adjust her game even though she is losinig at a level far below where she considers it to be. No one can talk to her about whats going on even though its obvious to everyone who watches. (She thinks she can just bang from the baseline to beat people but its not working) If your results are standout then you can play however you want. But if you aren't dominating and everyone is trying to mention things that you aren't doing well them maybe its time to listen.

[rh310]

Originally Posted by tennislefty

your what I call the "red flag player" too many.. " are you kidding me's?" like the guy who asked you if you were in a coma. Get real..anyone who says they completely "carry" their partners *** in a match is a joke. If you at any time remotely stepped on courts in the past with 4.5 /5.0 players then on a rusty time off from tennis you should be back in the 4.5 arena, real 4.5/5.0s dont want anyrthing to do with 3.5 players unless they are their coaches, 3.5 guys cant begin to play dubs with 4.5's, you were assigned with a 3.0 partner for a reason and may need a reality check.
as for who plays add and deuce side, backhands /forhands etc, etc etc...4.5'/5.0 dont have weak backhands etc...all this is a wash and makes no sense to good lefties who play with weak righties..

Maybe you're right. Myself, I'd hesitate to draw so many conclusions based on what's been written, because any written description is far from sufficient for conveying the entire experience. You'd have to be there in order to do that.

Myself, I find it's best to give the writer the benefit of the doubt of their description of events rather than imagine I've got some deep insight into the situation they describe when no such insight is possible.

But hey, you got to bust somebody's chops, eh? Good for you.

[slewisoh]

Originally Posted by rh310

I was fortunate to be taken a little under the wing by a few of these guys in particular, who taught me how to really play doubles. It was an incredibly exciting and fun game the way they played it.

This is what you need to expand upon here so that people have a better idea what you are talking about. Give some examples that illustrate the differences.

I've been watching Wimbledon doubles, and certainly not everyone prescribes to the "taking the net" philosophy. At higher levels, some teams are successful with different approaches. But as you admit yourself, you are not one of those higher level players and therefore you cannot pull off those higher level playing styles on your own.

I'm sure that's frustrating and I sincerely sympathize with you. But I must point out that like your team mates, you too are guilty of not wanting to change anything in your game. That will undoubtedly earn you the very reputation you seek to avoid.

[PushyPushster]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I have to admit to a personal bias, though. I don't like playing with partners who never, ever come in.

I'd love to team up with you for a match of mixed doubles, Cindy. Just to see how long you could last before screaming at me.

[onehandbh]

Originally Posted by rh310

Several years ago I was playing a boatload of tennis: 4.5 USTA league, and in club-arranged tennis parties that had several former college players who were active and winning in the NYC 5.0 - 5.5 USTA leagues.

I was fortunate to be taken a little under the wing by a few of these guys in particular, who taught me how to really play doubles. It was an incredibly exciting and fun game the way they played it.

Tell your story of how you learned to really play doubles to your doubles partner and then rest of the team.

They will learn. They will tell their children and their children will
tell their children.

"Papi... how did you learn to play real doubles? Well, son..."

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by tennislefty

... real 4.5/5.0s dont want anyrthing to do with 3.5 players unless they are their coaches...


...as for who plays add and deuce side, backhands /forhands etc, etc etc...4.5'/5.0 dont have weak backhands etc...all this is a wash and makes no sense to good lefties who play with weak righties..

TRUE ! .....

[WBF]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Two up is the strongest formation, right?

Nope.

I dunno. It just sounds weird to me that you are being scolded for not coming to net.

When I play with people I don't know very well (occasional USTA matches, subbing in a club, etc.), I occasionally get scolded for my style, despite my prior indication of my play, and despite the effectiveness of my game.

You should be coming to net, and players at the higher levels seem to do this. I just wonder if what is really happening is that you are hanging back for no good reason and your pro is trying to get you to stop doing that.

It all depends on the player and the team. Some can effectively play back, apart from very attackable situations.

I have to admit to a personal bias, though. I don't like playing with partners who never, ever come in. So if I were in a clinic and the pro was telling my partner to come in and she wouldn't do it *even in practice*, then I would be very frustrated with her.

Agreed that people should work on all aspects of their game, but we're discussing someone who is playing in a USTA league, not in a clinic.

[tennismonkey]

club and league tennis is a completely different game than what the bryan brothers play.

club players can lob and moonball every stroke and win matches. club players can dink and hit junk shots and win matches. club players can serve like they are making pancakes and win matches. and club players can sit back at the baseline and not volley a single ball and win matches.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by PushyPushster

I'd love to team up with you for a match of mixed doubles, Cindy. Just to see how long you could last before screaming at me.

I could probably last a very long time, Pushy. Probably longer than you could resist the impulse to scream at me for missing *another* service return.

Most of the 3.5 guys I play with would rather die than transition to net. One has really good hands when he starts there, though. They play however they are most comfortable playing, and so do I. It's all good.

Now, if we are in a coached team practice and the coach wants them to move up and they still won't do it . . . that would be annoying. How are we going to grow as a team if folks don't get out of their comfort zones, even in practice?

[rh310]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Now, if we are in a coached team practice and the coach wants them to move up and they still won't do it . . . that would be annoying. How are we going to grow as a team if folks don't get out of their comfort zones, even in practice?

I agree! Except that, in my case, it's not that I won't do it at all -- it's that I won't do it without seeing an approach opportunity. In singles, I'm definitey an all court player. I'm not afraid of approaching the net when the opportunity presents itself. I could probably be more aggressive about this, though, so that's food for thought.

I agree too about the comfort zones. That's why I've hit at least weekly with one-on-one teaching coaches for the past couple of years, and in as many 4.0+ drill sessions and workshops as I can cram into my schedule -- and, now that school's out, I hit once a week with a 5.0 from a local college who kicks my ***. Two 90 min team practices (one all-team, the other doubles teams) on the weekends...the last thing I'm about is staying in a comfort zone.

But I'm also not about taking just any old advice, though, just 'cause the person giving it calls himself a coach. I consider what's being said first. As has been pointed out, there's a lot of bad advice given out even by the best-intended people.

My current teaching coach I've been hitting with for about nine months. He was a coach for the Russian tennis team (back when Russia was the USSR) and is the teaching coach for many of the local top juniors and college players. I'm one of the very few "adult" students he works with, because I want to be better and I put the work in. Very contemporary technique, and covers all strokes and court situations.

In the interest of keeping the peace, however, I'm probably going to cave and just do what I'm told in practice: follow any shot to the net. Nothing ****es the sheep off like going against the groupthink; nothing ****es off an authoritarian like someone who questions authority. Now I tried it for a while last weekend and got tired of hitting volleys from my shoelaces, particularly since I had a 90 minute private lesson still in front of me later that same morning, but WTF. If I show up, I should fully engage.

And, incidently, for that poster who suggested I should do a reality check based on my being paired with a 3.0 for doubles, the reality check is this: The team captain put the team together that he thought would win in 2nd dubs (it was the first win of the season for my partner, BTW, out of six previous tries with different partners). The captain is trying to produce a winning team. Period.

[Cindysphinx]

^I disagree that you should wait for a good ball to approach on. You serve, you come to net. You return, you come to net. You don't react, you act.

That should be the default setting in a practice match/clinic/teaching pro situation. I mean, you already know how to approach off of the right ball. Now you have to learn how to force the action.

I say this because at 4.0 I am learning that many games or matches are essentially a race to the net. Pity the player who gets pinned at the baseline against two good volleyers at net.

[NLBwell]

Find a 4.0 or 4.5 team that is there for enjoyment and friendship. Have a lot of fun playing. Have some beers after the match and relax. I've been on (and captained) many teams like this.

[rh310]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

^I disagree that you should wait for a good ball to approach on. You serve, you come to net. You return, you come to net. You don't react, you act.

Disagree all you like. Do what works for you. Others will do what works for them, because their experience is different than yours. When it stops working for them, THEN they'll have a reason to change what they're doing.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by rh310

Disagree all you like. Do what works for you. Others will do what works for them, because their experience is different than yours. When it stops working for them, THEN they'll have a reason to change what they're doing.

But . . . that's the whole problem.

You may find yourself in a match in which your normal approach "stops working." It happens to everyone.

The question is this: What then?

If you have refused in practice to work on coming into net on the first ball (rather than waiting for the right ball), then you have no Plan B. Even if you know you need to change it up in the match, you will have no confidence in Plan B because you haven't practiced it.

Forgive my aggressive stance on this, but it just makes me crazy. I have players on my team who just will not push the envelope in practice. They seem not to be able to stand losing a point or looking foolish, even in practice. So when things go south for us in a match, we wind up having a conference between points like this:

"OK, let's line up Australian and give that a try. No? Um, OK. Let's follow our returns to net, then. No? Um, how about a lob return? No? OK, I'll serve up the middle and you poach the crosscourt ball. No? OK, let's just keep losing then."

Trust me. If you learn to come to net in doubles you will always be glad you have that arrow in your quiver.

[rh310]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Forgive my aggressive stance on this, but it just makes me crazy. I have players on my team who just will not push the envelope in practice.

I am not them. You seem to be putting me in their place, and arguing with them via me.

Forgive me, but I'm not going to respond to you about this topic any more.

[Xisbum]

^^^Have to side with RH on this one. He's played 4.5 and apparently flirted with 5.0 before; therefore, he's an accomplished player who knows his game. Don't know why he's wasting time at 3.5, but that's his choice.

Deal is, most 3.0 and 3.5 players NEED practice and drilling to do certain things that 4.5s and above can do instinctively. Players at that level have skills we 3.0s and 3.5s may never have. If they need to change their game in the middle of a match, believe me, they can do it.

RH, why not jump back in at 4.0? Your partners and teammates there would probably appreciate and accept your game more there than at the 3.5 level.