Doubles tactics for dummies!...

[deluxe]

"cover your line" is bad doubles advice. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who I thought "I wish they'd cover their line better" (although I've played with lots of people who can't volley the down the line shot well). I've lost count of the number of people I've played with (even very good players) who think they're doing their job by standing close enough to the tramlines that the opponents never hit down the line.

As the net man you need to cover one half of the court. If your opponents are never trying to pass you down the line, you're not covering half the court.

If you're going to cover your line, make sure that the line is at the extreme of your reach: that is with one large crossover step and a volley stroke. I'm 5ft7 and that's over two meters for me. And think about your opponents shot tolerance. How often is your opponent really going to be able to make that down the line shot? If he's slightly off one way his shot goes out, if he's slightly off the other way you get an easy volley winner to the middle of the court.

[Camilio Pascual]

Originally Posted by deluxe

"cover your line" is bad doubles advice.

Excellent, it is also bad singles advice.
My experience, at least at 4.0 level and lower, is that nobody is going to consistently hit the ~6 inch gap I try to leave along the sideline without missing a lot and making too many errors. I very much like to play with people who continually try to do just that.

[deluxe]

These screenshots (sorry for the terrible quality) are taken from a talk given by Louis Cayer and he's commenting on the positioning of some of the people in his Doubles DVD.

First up are some Australian guys he says were ranked about 130 in the world, he calls the following Server's Partner position "very weak" and laments that he had to put this in the DVD because he had to find examples of certain moves from Davis & Fed Cup:



Here is an example of what he calls "good" position, the Server's Partner here is Lisa Raymond. He says for good position the foot closest to the tramlines should be in the middle of the box.

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

"cover your line" is bad doubles advice. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who I thought "I wish they'd cover their line better"

As the net man you need to cover one half of the court. If your opponents are never trying to pass you down the line, you're not covering half the court.

Interesting comments.

first- cover the line is bad
second- cover half the court

Isn't your line on your half the court??
I've not seen many who have trouble cover most of their half, but see quite a few that can be burned down the line. I earn quite a few points almost every match hitting down poorly covered lines.

Other than trying to play in No Mans land, this is the most regular mistake players make. Maybe at 2.5 to low 4.0 you don't see players hit well down the line, but better players will often take some of the tougher balls dtl, as it is often easier in many respects.

We never said not to cover your half, or even where to stand, quite the contrary;
but if you are getting smoked DTL with me as your partner, I'm not happy as it is very hard for me to help on that side. You are all we have over there, so you really need to get that done. I can really cover you and help to augment on the middle balls though.

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

These screenshots (sorry for the terrible quality) are taken from a talk given by Louis Cayer and he's commenting on the positioning of some of the people in his Doubles DVD.

First up are some Australian guys he says were ranked about 130 in the world, he calls the following Server's Partner position "very weak" and laments that he had to put this in the DVD because he had to find examples of certain moves from Davis & Fed Cup:



Here is an example of what he calls "good" position, the Server's Partner here is Lisa Raymond. He says for good position the foot closest to the tramlines should be in the middle of the box.

Initial position means nothing, and in fact position in general means very little in and of it's self. It is "What you can cover".

This pics tell us nothing about what they have chosen to cover in the coming point. Their position may be a complete decoy as to their intentions on coverage.
You seem to confuse position with coverage in this discussion.
We are talking about what must be covered and your comments are about where to stand.
No "good" pro will ever say to concede your line and not have coverage there, but they may suggest a position that conceals the line coverage.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

Interesting comments.

first- cover the line is bad
second- cover half the court

Isn't your line on your half the court??
I've not seen many who have trouble cover most of their half, but see quite a few that can be burned down the line. I earn quite a few points almost every match hitting down poorly covered lines.

Other than trying to play in No Mans land, this is the most regular mistake players make. Maybe at 2.5 to low 4.0 you don't see players hit well down the line, but better players will often take some of the tougher balls dtl, as it is often easier in many respects.

We never said not to cover your half, or even where to stand, quite the contrary;
but if you are getting smoked DTL with me as your partner, I'm not happy as it is very hard for me to help on that side. You are all we have over there, so you really need to get that done. I can really cover you and help to augment on the middle balls though.

Obviously we have opposite experiences playing doubles.

In my experience
8 out of 10 people don't cover half of the court because they are "covering their line".

[FloridaAG]

Communicate with your partner and move as a team - frankly there is plenty of strategy and I agree with much that has been posted above, but at the end of the day communication and coordinated movement is the key.

If your partner is pulled wide, you have to shift to the middle to assist and can't stay planted on your side. Watch and adjust and move at all times.

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

Obviously we have opposite experiences playing doubles.

In my experience
8 out of 10 people don't cover half of the court because they are "covering their line".

I am curious to what level and part of the country you are observing this, if you are inclined to share that info.

Also I would be interested in the negative effects of playing with someone who covers their line too well?
Are they placing too much demand on you in the center of the court?
thanks

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

Initial position means nothing, and in fact position in general means very little in and of it's self. It is "What you can cover".

This pics tell us nothing about what they have chosen to cover in the coming point. Their position may be a complete decoy as to their intentions on coverage.
You seem to confuse position with coverage in this discussion.
We are talking about what must be covered and your comments are about where to stand.
No "good" pro will ever say to concede your line and not have coverage there, but they may suggest a position that conceals the line coverage.

Initial positioning is important because you need to be at an equal distance between your potential finishing points when the server hits the ball. If the serve is out wide, you want to be approximately between the "poach position" (center line) and the non-poach position (just outside the tramlines). If you're too close to the tramlines when the server serves you'll have to move too early to get to the poach position on time and on balance.

Initial positioning is critical.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

I am curious to what level and part of the country you are observing this, if you are inclined to share that info.

England. I'd say I'm approx. 4.5. I observe this at all levels.

Also I would be interested in the negative effects of playing with someone who covers their line too well?
Are they placing too much demand on you in the center of the court?
thanks[/quote]

[quote=5263;4872553]Yes. It's much harder to serve and volley covering 75% of the court than it is to serve and volley covering 50% of the court.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by 5263

I am curious to what level and part of the country you are observing this, if you are inclined to share that info.

Also I would be interested in the negative effects of playing with someone who covers their line too well?
Are they placing too much demand on you in the center of the court?
thanks

...what you need to do is pack the center. If you and your partner cover the lines, you leave a hole you can drive a truck through right in the middle of the court...and getting a shot into that hole is a percentage shot, because it's over the low part of the net, and it's nowhere near any of the side lines.

If you pack the middle, you just took away the easy ball down the middle. Now your opponents have to think about hitting to the outside, which is riskier because they might miss outside the lines and it's over the high part of the net.

What does "packing the middle" consist of? Basically, you and your partner should be laterally spaced so that if you extend your rackets toward each other, they should just about touch. To start with, let's assume you hit through the court, then both got to the net. So you're "centered" at the net. Now you have to (a) stay linked with your partner...maintain the horizontal spacing so your rackets almost touch and (b) move with the ball. If you're in the right court, for example, and you hit a volley cross court, you and your partner both shade cross court.

Trust me, this is not something I just made up. If you had a chance to see the Bryan brothers at Wimbledon, this is how they play: link with your partner, pack the middle to start, move laterally with your partner...

[Cindysphinx]

I'll take a double helping of "Don't worry about covering the line."

I pull my hair out in clumps with partners who position in such a way that the only thing they are covering is the line. What's so hard about standing in the middle and then just getting in front of the ball, wherever it happens to be? If it goes wide, shift wide. If it goes up the middle, shift to the middle.

I mean, I hit a good serve up the middle, return is a duck but my partner started off with one foot on the tram line and so the duck is out of reach. Aargh!

I remember a team practice when I had a new partner. I was serving, and she was literally in the back corner of the service box nearest the alley. This left me with about 88% of the court to cover by myself. The returners, being smart, started blasting returns directly at the center of the service box where she *should* have been standing. I said, "Hey, would you start off in the center of the box closer to net so you can grab some of those returns up the middle?" She said, "No, if I do that they will hit down my alley." She kept lining up the same exact way.

I haven't partnered with her since.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I'll take a double helping of "Don't worry about covering the line."

I pull my hair out in clumps with partners who position in such a way that the only thing they are covering is the line. What's so hard about standing in the middle and then just getting in front of the ball, wherever it happens to be? If it goes wide, shift wide. If it goes up the middle, shift to the middle.

I mean, I hit a good serve up the middle, return is a duck but my partner started off with one foot on the tram line and so the duck is out of reach. Aargh!

I remember a team practice when I had a new partner. I was serving, and she was literally in the back corner of the service box nearest the alley. This left me with about 88% of the court to cover by myself. The returners, being smart, started blasting returns directly at the center of the service box where she *should* have been standing. I said, "Hey, would you start off in the center of the box closer to net so you can grab some of those returns up the middle?" She said, "No, if I do that they will hit down my alley." She kept lining up the same exact way.

I haven't partnered with her since.

...as you have described, the idea is for you and your partner to play as one wide singles player, not as occasional acquaintances in separate but parallel universes...

[5263]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...what you need to do is pack the center. If you and your partner cover the lines, you leave a hole you can drive a truck through right in the middle of the court...and getting a shot into that hole is a percentage shot, because it's over the low part of the net, and it's nowhere near any of the side lines.

If you pack the middle, you just took away the easy ball down the middle. Now your opponents have to think about hitting to the outside, which is riskier because they might miss outside the lines and it's over the high part of the net.
.

Again as mentioned earlier, there is confusion here in positioning vs coverage- they are not the same thing,
although in most of these posts they are being discussed as if they are the same. The situation u describe of both covering allys at the same time with the truck hole down the middle, would never be the case unless you also don't under stand "shift and stagger".

Both in the middle assumes a rare middle ball going to your opponents if they are deep and in this situation, there is no DTL for concern.

If you are getting passed down dtl, you have poor coverage.
If you are not getting hurt down the lines, your coverage is satisfactory.
Position how you prefer to make it happen.

Deluxe, you think covering 70% (not a valid %) of the court is hard; wait till you try to cover that ally on the other side of your partner that you suggest he not cover.

.

[larry10s]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

... the idea is for you and your partner to play as one wide singles player, not as occasional acquaintances in separate but parallel universes...

very eloquently stated.

[crystal_clear]

skiracer55 said, "...the server's partner should be poaching or faking a poach on every single point. Especially if your partner isn't serving and volleying, if you're not poaching or faking a poach, there's no point in starting at the net, ..." I should apply this concept into my game instead of waiting for balls coming to me.

[larry10s]

Originally Posted by 5263

Again as mentioned earlier, there is confusion here in positioning vs coverage- they are not the same thing,
although in most of these posts they are being discussed as if they are the same. The situation u describe of both covering allys at the same time with the truck hole down the middle, would never be the case unless you also don't under stand "shift and stagger".

Both in the middle assumes a rare middle ball going to your opponents if they are deep and in this situation, there is no DTL for concern.

If you are getting passed down dtl, you have poor coverage.
If you are not getting hurt down the lines, your coverage is satisfactory.
Position how you prefer to make it happen.

Deluxe, you think covering 70% (not a valid %) of the court is hard; wait till you try to cover that ally on the other side of your partner that you suggest he not cover.

.

i think that what some of the posters are trying to say is the people who cover the alley are positioned in a way that leaves the center wide open so they are not able to cover their portion of the court because they are overprotecting the alley.
i disagree with your comment
"If you are not getting hurt down the lines, your coverage is satisfactory"
if you are getting killed down the middle but not down the line the coverage is NOT satifactory.

[julian]

Originally Posted by 5263

I am curious to what level and part of the country you are observing this, if you are inclined to share that info.

Also I would be interested in the negative effects of playing with someone who covers their line too well?
Are they placing too much demand on you in the center of the court?
thanks

A name of a country is Scotland

[5263]

Well all these players supporting leaving the lines uncovered explains alot about my win/ loss dubs record over the last 4-5 years.
And I thought it was because of the way I pound the middle early in the match! Little did I realize so many folks just plan on leaving it open from the onset, lol.
I guess pounding the middle early is still a great way to get warmed up before feasting on the uncovered allys.

best to you!

[5263]

Originally Posted by larry10s

i disagree with your comment
"If you are not getting hurt down the lines, your coverage is satisfactory"
if you are getting killed down the middle but not down the line the coverage is NOT satifactory.

This was in the context of discussing dtl coverage.
No one has questioned the need to cover the middle have they??

There is no reason to leave any court uncovered in dubs with proper shift and stagger. If playing with me, shade your coverage to the outside where you have NO help. I can help you cover the edges of your middle coverage.