Doubles tactics for dummies!...

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by crystal_clear

skiracer55 said, "...the server's partner should be poaching or faking a poach on every single point. Especially if your partner isn't serving and volleying, if you're not poaching or faking a poach, there's no point in starting at the net, ..." I should apply this concept into my game instead of waiting for balls coming to me.

...the next question is, where do you go from there? Meaning that you and your partner are both starting on the baseline when your partner is serving...what's next? You can both stay there and hit groundies, is one choice, and while this wouldn't be my way, a couple of years back, two of the Chinese women actually made it to the finals of a Grand Slam by employing exactly this tactic. If, however, you and your partner like the idea of going to the net together, then if you get a short ball or other opportunity, then you can both come up at the same time. So now you have a "we started at the baseline, joined at the hip, now we're going to move to the net, still joined at the net" strategy...try it, you might like it...

[skiracer55]

...and illuminating to me, because I'm starting to believe that there are almost more possibilities in doubles these days then there are in singles, where "big serve, big forehand, that is all you need to know" often works at the highest levels!

Very interesting also, because I'm going to be coaching a group of 4.0/4.5s tomorrow, and this is an extension of a clinic I did about 3 weeks ago. In the first clinic, the focus stroke was the volley, and I talked about different doubles formations and strategies and a more or less basic set of ideas for initial positioning/roles for each player per one of my posts, above. And everyone seemed to get a lot out of what I was working on, regardless of whether he or she actually changed the way he or she played! I think it's important to know all the possibilities, and to know where you fit in the range of those possibilities. If you can see that a choice is to "pack the center" but you're convinced that you need to "cover the line", then fine...if it works for you, and that's the way you want to play tennis, that's your choice. That's the nice thing about tennis, is there are many different paths to success and good times on the court.

What I'm going to be doing tomorrow is a progression:

- From 8 to 9, I'm going to be doing a demo hitting session with one of my hitting partners, who is also a 5.0. The idea is not so much to say "this is how to hit a forehand" or "here's how you strategize point play", it's really to say "here's how to take 45 minutes to an hour, especially if you're time constrained, and effectively and efficiently train to improve your tennis." To me, this is the building block...get into a routine like this, and you'll be working toward dependable, consistent strokes that you can take into pattern play and actual point play in matches.

- At 9, we're going to get two volunteers and do a serve and volley demo. First, I'm going to say "Okay, why do we serve and volley, anyway?" And I'm hoping somebody will say "Well, if I'm the server, and my partner is at net, and I want to get on up there with my partner, the shortest distance between two points is to serve and volley with no intervening ground strokes...right?" And that person gets an A plus, or I provide the answer. Then I'm going to do a serve-split-step at the T-first volley- move in demo at 3/4 speed. I want to emphasize the movement pattern, because it's possible to play S&V, I believe, at any level, if you target your serve and succeeding strokes and if you move intelligently on the court.

Serve and volley, to me, simplifies the whole process of playing doubles. There isn't nearly as much "Yours...Mine? No yours!" going on, there isn't so much of a possiblity of the net person not having anything to do until the next millenium, there is less of a conscious effort required, IMHO, to coordinate movements with your partner. I really, really advocate that all players, at whatever level, should give S&V in doubles a try. Then we're going to crank up the volume and play some full one, big serve/big volley points to conclude the demo.

After that, everybody splits up into doubles pairs and I walk around and coach, or, if desired, we have a drill court where pairs/individuals can work on whatever is desired...overheads, chip and charge patterns, doubles returns, more volley stuff, whatever. I'm looking forward to it, the group I had before, and I think there will be a lot of returnees, was incredibly enthusiastic and willing to learn new things quickly...wish y'all could be there!

[bhupaes]

I think some folks are missing the point about initial position and covering the line. If I am at net, my understanding with my partner is that if he hits wide, I will move to cover the DTL shot, and he's responsible for the middle. Obviously, if he hits in the middle, I am responsible for my part of the middle and anything DTL - I will give priority to covering the more likely shot through the middle in this case. The decision to cover the line or the middle is dynamic, based on how and where you or your partner hit the previous ball, and which part of the court needs most coverage.

Similarly, initial position depends on the communication you had with your partner. If he's going to serve down the middle, you want to be closer to the middle. If he's going wide, you look for DTL and he moves to cover the middle. Same kind of reasoning applies to returning.

Of all the principles in doubles, this is the most important one for me. Not that I win too many doubles matches - most of them are pick up games, and my partners usually have no clue about setting up their net man. And they hit the ball with nothing on it and the opponent has so many choices that it is not possible for me to cover the net efficiently...

Edit: And that's why even though I love doubles dearly, I end up playing a helluva lot more singles.

[5263]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

I think some folks are missing the point about initial position and covering the line. The decision to cover the line or the middle is dynamic, based on how and where you or your partner hit the previous ball, and which part of the court needs most coverage.

Similarly, initial position depends on the communication you had with your partner. If he's going to serve down the middle, you want to be closer to the middle. If he's going wide, you look for DTL and he moves to cover the middle. Same kind of reasoning applies to returning.

.

You got it man, position is dynamic, but coverage stays intact!

[crystal_clear]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...the next question is, where do you go from there? Meaning that you and your partner are both starting on the baseline when your partner is serving...what's next? You can both stay there and hit groundies, is one choice, and while this wouldn't be my way, a couple of years back, two of the Chinese women actually made it to the finals of a Grand Slam by employing exactly this tactic. If, however, you and your partner like the idea of going to the net together, then if you get a short ball or other opportunity, then you can both come up at the same time. So now you have a "we started at the baseline, joined at the hip, now we're going to move to the net, still joined at the net" strategy...try it, you might like it...

Me and my partner played Intercounty ladies double (8.0). One of the opponent slice everything with consistency. The other lefty opponent hit topspin ground stroke though less consistent. We started with one up one back and got lobbed and lost 1:6 1st set. We then adjusted to play two back and it worked for a while but we lost some crucial point and 0:5 in the 2nd set. We decided to move up since we got nothing to lose. We became active at the net and won 6 games in a row 6:5 then 6 all. At tie-break, we played not to lose and moved back again. We lost 3:7 in the tie-break.

We lost the net and we lost the battle.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...what you need to do is pack the center. If you and your partner cover the lines, you leave a hole you can drive a truck through right in the middle of the court...and getting a shot into that hole is a percentage shot, because it's over the low part of the net, and it's nowhere near any of the side lines.

If you pack the middle, you just took away the easy ball down the middle. Now your opponents have to think about hitting to the outside, which is riskier because they might miss outside the lines and it's over the high part of the net.

I'll second this from another perspective. The primary shots to cover as a net player are drives from your opponents. When your opponents hit a good drive, you won't have a great deal of time to move, you're just going to have minimal footwork. When your opponents hit angles, they can't hit it as hard, so you'll usually have more time to move to the ball. The right concept is that you pack the middle to cover the drives and you move out to cover the angles.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

I think some folks are missing the point about initial position and covering the line. If I am at net, my understanding with my partner is that if he hits wide, I will move to cover the DTL shot, and he's responsible for the middle. Obviously, if he hits in the middle, I am responsible for my part of the middle and anything DTL - I will give priority to covering the more likely shot through the middle in this case. The decision to cover the line or the middle is dynamic, based on how and where you or your partner hit the previous ball, and which part of the court needs most coverage.

Similarly, initial position depends on the communication you had with your partner. If he's going to serve down the middle, you want to be closer to the middle. If he's going wide, you look for DTL and he moves to cover the middle. Same kind of reasoning applies to returning.

Of all the principles in doubles, this is the most important one for me. Not that I win too many doubles matches - most of them are pick up games, and my partners usually have no clue about setting up their net man. And they hit the ball with nothing on it and the opponent has so many choices that it is not possible for me to cover the net efficiently...

Edit: And that's why even though I love doubles dearly, I end up playing a helluva lot more singles.

I agree with you, but I have some issues with the bolded part.

I set up in the same exact spot regardless of where my partner has told me she will serve. Once the serve is struck, I then move based on serve location. Varying your starting position tips alert receivers as to what is coming.

And even if the receiver doesn't "read" the serve based on where you are starting the point at net, varying your starting position creates another problem. Say your partner says she will serve out wide, so you start closer to the alley for that point. You have put no pressure on the crosscourt return. The receiver can relax and spank the return with little worry it will be intercepted because you are too far away. Better, I think, is just start in the middle and shift over with the serve. Then the opponent will have movement at net to deal with while she is hitting, which is always a good thing.

Cindy -- who *loves* opponents who line up near the alley and who will take that crosscourt angle for every single return

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

I'll second this from another perspective. The primary shots to cover as a net player are drives from your opponents. When your opponents hit a good drive, you won't have a great deal of time to move, you're just going to have minimal footwork. When your opponents hit angles, they can't hit it as hard, so you'll usually have more time to move to the ball. The right concept is that you pack the middle to cover the drives and you move out to cover the angles.

So why do you have so many balls in the middle of the court and facing drives?
In dubs, most baseline shots come from one side or the other,
or they should so you can set up the court to play 2 on 1 and squeeze down the court on the hitter.
So the drives you speak of defending with no time to move are DTL, with the angles you say you can move to- being xcourt to middle or wide.

Mainly the only time you will have middle deep balls will be when serving to the T, and of course the net man follows the ball and packs the middle;
But
the line is covered adequately due to geometry and bisecting of the angle.

[deluxe]

Another perspective:

If you were to win 60% of points, you're doing well.

If you take two equal level players, if you ask one to return a well struck, deep ball (or a serve) and hit it a drive down the line and actually hit the line, I'd suspect they'd be lucky to do it 1 in 100 times.

Lets give the receiver a 6 inch margin, now how often will he get it between the tramline and 6 inches inside the tramline? If they couldn't hit that 6 inch gap off a deep shot with a good drive at least 4 times out of 10, then I'd say you shouldn't be covering that 6 inches. If your opponents are going to hit shots they can only make 40% of the time, you're going to win.

Even if you think my 40%-6 inches figure is wrong at any particular level, there is going to be *some* margin which they can only hit 40% of the time, and you shouldn't be trying to cover that margin.

It's better to cover 6 inches more of the centre than to cover that 6 inches on the side.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I set up in the same exact spot regardless of where my partner has told me she will serve. Once the serve is struck, I then move based on serve location. Varying your starting position tips alert receivers as to what is coming.

Cindy -- who *loves* opponents who line up near the alley and who will take that crosscourt angle for every single return

Where you start is a tip to what you will do?? Why?
Why would you not give different looks, then follow with a variety
of moves after the serve is in flight? Why be so predictable?

5263-- who loves to line up near the ally, then poach shots from those who think this tells them something.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

So why do you have so many balls in the middle of the court and facing drives?
In dubs, most baseline shots come from one side or the other,
or they should so you can set up the court to play 2 on 1 and squeeze down the court on the hitter.
So the drives you speak of defending with no time to move are DTL, with the angles you say you can move to- being xcourt to middle or wide.

I'm thinking of having two people at the net (second volley position) against one or two back.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I agree with you, but I have some issues with the bolded part.

I set up in the same exact spot regardless of where my partner has told me she will serve. Once the serve is struck, I then move based on serve location. Varying your starting position tips alert receivers as to what is coming.

Agreed, you can't set up differently for serves going to different locations.

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

Even if you think my 40%-6 inches figure is wrong at any particular level, there is going to be *some* margin which they can only hit 40% of the time, and you shouldn't be trying to cover that margin.

Why?
Why would you give up something coverable?
If you are playing it straight without called plays,
just follow the serve and you don't need to leave anything uncovered.
With called plays, you are calling your chosen coverage.
But I do agree that you never need to cover a shot that you don't think a given opponent can make a few times.
That said, I don't leave things open on big points where I can't afford to see that 1 in 10 lucky shot.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

Where you start is a tip to what you will do?? Why?
Why would you not give different looks, then follow with a variety
of moves after the serve is in flight? Why be so predictable?

5263-- who loves to line up near the ally, then poach shots from those who think this tells them something.

You have to be in the right place at the right time, and on balance. If you start near the alley, your partner serves down the T and you try to get in the correct poach position, you'll have to move way before your partner's serve bounces and you'll have to move so quickly that you won't be making a neutral split step when the receiver hits the ball.

Unless your partner is serving underarm.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

Why?
Why would you give up something coverable?
If you are playing it straight without called plays,
just follow the serve and you don't need to leave anything uncovered.
With called plays, you are calling your chosen coverage.
But I do agree that you never need to cover a shot that you don't think a given opponent can make a few times.
That said, I don't leave things open on big points where I can't afford to see that 1 in 10 lucky shot.

As I said. It's percentage tennis. Why would you cover shots your opponents can make 40% of the time and leave uncovered shots he can make 95% of the time?

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

I'm thinking of having two people at the net (second volley position) against one or two back.

And you are giving them deep balls in the middle to hit?

Giving them them the choice of who gets to make the play?
Giving both corners to lob to?
Letting them choose between inside out, crosscourt, or dipper down the middle; whatever they favor?
These are all things I would rather control on my terms not theirs, so I don't see this array very often, and strongly prefer to put the iso on one guy.

But yes, in this rare set up, packing the middle would be good, but the lines will be coved thru bisecting the angles of course.

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I agree with you, but I have some issues with the bolded part.

I set up in the same exact spot regardless of where my partner has told me she will serve. Once the serve is struck, I then move based on serve location. Varying your starting position tips alert receivers as to what is coming.

And even if the receiver doesn't "read" the serve based on where you are starting the point at net, varying your starting position creates another problem. Say your partner says she will serve out wide, so you start closer to the alley for that point. You have put no pressure on the crosscourt return. The receiver can relax and spank the return with little worry it will be intercepted because you are too far away. Better, I think, is just start in the middle and shift over with the serve. Then the opponent will have movement at net to deal with while she is hitting, which is always a good thing.

Cindy -- who *loves* opponents who line up near the alley and who will take that crosscourt angle for every single return

I agree predictability is bad. But even if you always start in the same position, if you can see or already know where the ball is headed, you can make the adjustment on the fly. Or, as 5263 has pointed out, you can give the opponent different looks and obfuscate your real intentions. There is a lot of trickery in doubles...

[5263]

Originally Posted by deluxe

As I said. It's percentage tennis. Why would you cover shots your opponents can make 40% of the time and leave uncovered shots he can make 95% of the time?

Not leaving anything uncovered and don't see why you would.

[deluxe]

Originally Posted by 5263

And you are giving them deep balls in the middle to hit?

Giving them them the choice of who gets to make the play?
Giving both corners to lob to?
Letting them choose between inside out, crosscourt, or dipper down the middle; whatever they favor?
These are all things I would rather control on my terms not theirs, so I don't see this array very often, and strongly prefer to put the iso on one guy.

But yes, in this rare set up, packing the middle would be good, but the lines will be coved thru bisecting the angles of course.

I'd rather hope to be winning at least two thirds of the points if my team have both players at the net against two people at the baseline one of whom is hitting a deep ball down the middle.

Assuming equal level players and the net players have good volleys and overheads.

[hrstrat57]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

......which there didn't used to be. Doubles the old way was always serve and volley, chip and charge, and now you see all kinds of stuff. Even on the WTA and ATP, the server doesn't always serve and volley. If your partner serves and stays back, what's a poor netperson to do? I kind of think you have two choices:

- First, forget about starting at the net in this situation. If you're not going to take advantage of the fact that you have one person already at the net, it's better off to have both in the back court, then work it from there.

- Second, if you are going to start at the net and your partner isn't going to serve and volley, you and your partner need to have a fireside chat. What Dave Hodge told me when he was coaching a bunch of us and ran us through some doubles clinics is that the most important person on the court is the server's partner, and the server's partner should be poaching or faking a poach on every single point. Especially if your partner isn't serving and volleying, if you're not poaching or faking a poach, there's no point in starting at the net, because you know your opponents know you never move, so they'll hit the return away from you and gladly take over the net. Obviously, if you're gonna poach or fake a poach, you and your partner need signals or have to at least talk it over before each point.

The moving back thing after you don't get a ball and they come in is contraindicated. Either do something at the net, or start back on the baseline with your partner.

As I said, in the old days, and pretty much at all levels except the absolute beginner, everybody was at least trying to play serve and volley, chip and charge. Most of us can pretty well describe who needs to do what and when in that situation.

Today, it's a lot more complex because there are all kinds of formations and strategies that win matches, at all levels. IMHO, however, what you and your partner have to do is pick out a strategy that works for you...that maximizes your strengths, tries to deny the opposing team the opportunity to pick on your weaknesses, and, most important allows you to play as a team. This last bit is really important. When I watch a lot of doubles these days, and I don't mean to pick on anyone, but it tends to happen most below the 4.0 level, what I see are four people playing singles on a doubles court. To effectively play together as a team, you and your partner need to sit down and have a discussion about what you're going to do, because you each have to know what the other is going to do and you can't depend on ESP for that information. And I think what you'll find is that there are general principles you can follow, but no cookie cutter solutions. Here's an example:

- Team A has two strong servers. The elect, on both partner's serve, to serve and stay back with the other person at the net. This works really well for Team A, and they hold serve a lot. Why is this? Well, we said both players have strong serves...strong enough, it turns out, that at the level they are playing, the opposing team can only get back 40% of the returns, first or second serve, so the server gets a lot of cheap winners, and doesn't really have to expend the energy to serve and volley. And the second part of this scenario is that most of the 40% of the returns that do come back are wounded ducks, and the net person easily picks off most of these.

- Team B also does the serve and stay back with a net person strategy, but it's not nearly as effective. In fact, Team B rarely holds serve using this strategy. Why is this? Well, to start with, both players have just so-so serves, so the opposing team gets lots of returns back, and is able to tee off on second serves. And neither player on Team B has an outstanding volley, and neither one particularly likes playing the net. But Team B actually has very strong ground strokes, because they're both tough baseliners in singles. For Team B, therefore, my advice is the following:

- Serve, and both stay back. I'd say also return and both stay back.

- Get some heavy groundies going. See what works best, maybe if you hit heavy to the back player (they're playing an back returner/up net player formation), you'll get some easy errors or some short balls that you can either whale on or use to hit an approach and move in. Don't neglect the net person, however, because remember that you have good groundies, and if you can hit some heavy balls at the net person, you may get some volley errors, short balls, or even force the net person to retreat...leaving the net open to you, if you want it.

- The above might be plenty enough to win matches. If this is going well, however, you might want to experiment with having both of you move into net in situation where you get a short ball or drive one or both players on the opposing team behind the baseline. Yes, I know, playing net is not your forte, but what you're trying to do is come into net pretty much only when you know you've got an overwhelming advantage...and therefore you could probably hit the winning volley with a broom.

I basically don't play a whole lot of doubles any more, but when I do, it's always with 3 other guys who only let the ball bounce on service returns. I like it that way...kind of like a knife fight in a phone booth. I had a partner a few years back who played doubles the way I do, serve and volley, chip and charge. We had both been playing tennis, and playing doubles, since God was in short pants, and got to the finals of a couple of big tournaments. So, naturally, we thought we knew everything there was to know about doubles. Then our coach, Dave Hodge, who played on the ATP tourn and is now one of the National Team coaches for Tennis Australia ran a doubles clinic for 4 of us, including me and my partner. What an education that turned out to be. I will put this in the next post in this thread...

Textbook stuff here sr55, real good work.