Starcraft 2 players club

[dave333]

Yeah ravens are hard to deal with. From what I have read though, a 1 base terran is not going to have enough gas to have a significant number of both banshees and ravens without a lot of time because it's quite gas intensive. HT can feedback ravens and banshees, and storm can obviously melt the rine ball.

Obviously in this case, the immortals are useless.

[Hot Sauce]

Terran can pump out a LOT of banshees from 2 starports. If I go with an early expand, I won't have HT in time to hold off the push, and 1 base HT isn't a good idea. Plus, Terran can intentionally drain banshee energy before attacking. It's tough.

[GetBetterer]

Starcraft2.com

The balance changes in our next patch will primarily focus on improving the zerg.



Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned:

• We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.



• Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.



• The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.



• The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.



• We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don't expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.

There...is a God...


Anyways, back on topic. Even with these nerfs your build isn't going to be improved at all.

Hot_Sauce:

I've been going 1 gas, 2gate expand into high templar play, and it's generally been working.

No. Just...no. The standard for Gateway/Warp Gate builds is:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

The numbers are huge in difference because unlike the Terrans who get M.U.L.E.'s after an Orbital Command, you will have Chrono Boost no matter what.

Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

Not only is it safer, but if you look at Pro replays, people Chrono Boost a Zealot to block off a tiny choke point where it can fight units one by one.

From this, you can easily transition into 4 Warp Gates, or 3 Warp Gates with a Robotics Facility.

I recommend 4 Warp Gates if you find your opponent easy.

However, I highly recommend getting Stalkers. Marines have a high amount of damage per second, but pro-active Blink micro allows your Stalkers to survive much longer, and they will because they have much more health and shield.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

The Robotics Facility will be for the Observer (which is invisible anyways). Although a lot of people don't, the Observer should be Chronoboosted out in those situations.

Keep it away from the Marines though, because they will destroy it easily, and MAYBE the Ravens because Ravens can use the Hunter Seeker Missile but I don't think they will.

[dave333]

you might say it's a...

'toss-up

YEEEEAAAAAAAAH


my friend is so funny.

^oh yeah lol I assumed he was going gate core, not 2 gate.

anyway, 4 range roach is gonna be sweet (i assume it will be 4). maybe it is a lil unfortunate that reaper play will be non existent, but that is simply due to their design.

more building hp is relatively useful i guess.

still marauders....they are way to powerful for what they do. more against toss than anything.

also mind giving some advice here:
http://screplays.com/replays/dave333/11007

I think I did okay early game, holding off pushes, blocking expos. main problem i guess was i didn't get my 3rd soon enough? i was pretty mineral locked the whole game.

[GetBetterer]

I prefer not to download replays simply because it takes time to go there, download the replay, put it in the viewing folder, and it just gets annoying.

Could you just grab a few screenies? ^^
================================================== ==========================
Also, I disagree on the Roach's range buff.

Personally, I find the Roach USELESS except in Tier 1 where it can help (somewhat) against early harasses but now 2 Gateway and Reaper Harassment is out of the picture, so the Roach is even more useless.

There are MUCH better units out there, and the Lurker could have easily replaced the Roach. My idea for the Lurker in TeamLiquid.net got shot down because people aren't willing to read long posts but here is what it was in a nutshell:

Lurker - 145 hit point unit. 2 Food. 75 Minerals, 25 Vespene Gas. Requires a Lurker Warren (obviously this would obviously be the Roach Warren). It's movement speed is faster than whatever the Roach has, and it has a melee attack. When Burrow is researched, and the Lurker Burrows, it can attack while Burrowed with it's secondary attack, Subterranean Spines.

I had some ideas for the Baneling to change too but again, people on TeamLiquid don't like to read. There was a guy who made a long post and a few short sentences said "help, lost to whatever" and he made this giant wall of paragraph that in the middle said "If you actually read through this, don't post anything." ^^

Time to go to the main topic - why the Roach is horrible.

Armored, 145 health points. Dies in 3 shots to the tank. Hydralisks also die in 3 shots to the Siege Tank, and deal more DPS and have a longer range.

An even better unit is the Infested Terran. Their AI makes them overpowered. First off, the egg takes 3 shots from a Siege tank to kill, and in addition to that, if the Egg dies, it becomes a new unit (technically speaking) so the Siege tanks AI will wander away from the unit they think they killed, or the unit that died and go onto another, so the heavy DPSing Infested Marines are free to reign damage.

[soyizgood]

Originally Posted by GetBetterer

I prefer not to download replays simply because it takes time to go there, download the replay, put it in the viewing folder, and it just gets annoying.

Could you just grab a few screenies? ^^
================================================== ==========================
Also, I disagree on the Roach's range buff.

Personally, I find the Roach USELESS except in Tier 1 where it can help (somewhat) against early harasses but now 2 Gateway and Reaper Harassment is out of the picture, so the Roach is even more useless.

There are MUCH better units out there, and the Lurker could have easily replaced the Roach. My idea for the Lurker in TeamLiquid.net got shot down because people aren't willing to read long posts but here is what it was in a nutshell:

Lurker - 145 hit point unit. 2 Food. 75 Minerals, 25 Vespene Gas. Requires a Lurker Warren (obviously this would obviously be the Roach Warren). It's movement speed is faster than whatever the Roach has, and it has a melee attack. When Burrow is researched, and the Lurker Burrows, it can attack while Burrowed with it's secondary attack, Subterranean Spines.

I had some ideas for the Baneling to change too but again, people on TeamLiquid don't like to read. There was a guy who made a long post and a few short sentences said "help, lost to whatever" and he made this giant wall of paragraph that in the middle said "If you actually read through this, don't post anything." ^^

Time to go to the main topic - why the Roach is horrible.

Armored, 145 health points. Dies in 3 shots to the tank. Hydralisks also die in 3 shots to the Siege Tank, and deal more DPS and have a longer range.

An even better unit is the Infested Terran. Their AI makes them overpowered. First off, the egg takes 3 shots from a Siege tank to kill, and in addition to that, if the Egg dies, it becomes a new unit (technically speaking) so the Siege tanks AI will wander away from the unit they think they killed, or the unit that died and go onto another, so the heavy DPSing Infested Marines are free to reign damage.

Tanks had their damage reduced in the last patch. I think it takes 4 shots now to kill a roach.

Starcraft developers are becoming more anti-Terran. What's being done to address zergling rushes (2 lings beat one marine anyway)? It takes more time for Terrans to do a quick raid anyway and even if they try that they have to use reactors instead of tech labs which means pumping out nothing but marines. Since Terran has to build starports just to get Medivacs it's a royal pain to try a quick raid that can actually do damage. Hellion strike would make more sense than a Marine rush IMO.

I think the Zerg have enough weapons. Their downside is that it requires more micro than the Protoss and Terran. Tough luck. The Zerg were designed to overwhelm with quantity of units, not necessarily quality.

[dave333]

^Tanks do same damage to roach, their damage to light got nerfed.

I'll try to give a description of what I think happened.

Map is scrap station, I was Z he was T. I was on the right side.

I go 14 hatch 13 pool because I didn't scout reapers. I scouted a hellion, then a reactor so I put up roach warren, my first 2 queens and lings hold off the first 3 hellions losing only like 1/2 drones. I build a couple roaches, they along with 2 queens fight off another four hellions that run in later. I drone super hard, get my economy going, and lair. I scout a hellion/thor push, so I put up some crawlers and built a lot of roaches along with some lings. He tries to break the rocks into my natural so I move my spines there, and when he breaks the rocks, i attack from both sides of the choke and crushed his force, then I sent a big counterattack of roach/ling and killed all the scvs at his expo and forced his nat to lift.

Meanwhile I was building my spire, it popped and I made some mutas. He built a lot of turrets though, and had thor+rines in base so I didn't harass.

I think was my mistake was after blocking the push, I did not grab my third immediately. I had a huge advantage after killing those scvs/his nat, i had 2 base fully saturated and had an army whereas he didn't have much (couldn't push though because he still had defense on his ramp).

I also didn't make more mutas. The push that finally killed me was a lot of hellions and like 6 thors; had I simply pumped mutas, I could've magic boxed him and used roach/muta to kill him. Instead, I tried went to hive and got ultras, but the whole time I didn't really have enough money for both upgrades and ultras.

Is roach/ling any good against thor/hellion? I also had blings in the mix too to kill scvs but 6 thors was just really strong and my roaches died to them.

I guess my biggest failing was a failure in expanding after crushing his push.

[Hot Sauce]

Originally Posted by GetBetterer

Anyways, back on topic. Even with these nerfs your build isn't going to be improved at all.

Hot_Sauce:


No. Just...no. The standard for Gateway/Warp Gate builds is:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

The numbers are huge in difference because unlike the Terrans who get M.U.L.E.'s after an Orbital Command, you will have Chrono Boost no matter what.

Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

Not only is it safer, but if you look at Pro replays, people Chrono Boost a Zealot to block off a tiny choke point where it can fight units one by one.

From this, you can easily transition into 4 Warp Gates, or 3 Warp Gates with a Robotics Facility.

I recommend 4 Warp Gates if you find your opponent easy.

However, I highly recommend getting Stalkers. Marines have a high amount of damage per second, but pro-active Blink micro allows your Stalkers to survive much longer, and they will because they have much more health and shield.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

The Robotics Facility will be for the Observer (which is invisible anyways). Although a lot of people don't, the Observer should be Chronoboosted out in those situations.

Keep it away from the Marines though, because they will destroy it easily, and MAYBE the Ravens because Ravens can use the Hunter Seeker Missile but I don't think they will.

I don't think you understand o_o..

My PvT build is a 1 gas, 2 warp gate expand. It's not a 2gate zealot rush.
Also, you don't wall off your choke against Terran.
4 gate is a terrible idea against Terran.
PDD nullifies stalkers, whether they have blink or not.
High templars will NOT be out in time to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack.

I mean you're giving general advice, but it just doesn't work. It's like telling me that in order to stop a 6 pool you should get carriers.

[GetBetterer]

So...no pylons in your build? o_O

Hot_Sauce:

My PvT build is a 1 gas, 2 warp gate expand. It's not a 2gate zealot rush.
Also, you don't wall off your choke against Terran.
4 gate is a terrible idea against Terran.
PDD nullifies stalkers, whether they have blink or not.
High templars will NOT be out in time to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack.

I mean you're giving general advice, but it just doesn't work. It's like telling me that in order to stop a 6 pool you should get carriers.

Well if you want to let your opponent just run in and have a lot of versatility, then yeah forget that wall-off. Sure.

If you actually read, I don't give general advice. I actually give specific advice and Blink is not the solution I gave against Point Defense Drones. Now, since you have proved to me your mind is very feeble, I'll re-quote the important parts you skipped.

GetBetterer:

Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

If you only get 2 Gateways, then of course you can't beat a good amount of Terrans, they'll produce more than you.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

What...do you not understand about "drains ALL energy" including a Point Defense Drone's energy, which is what allows it to absorb shots? Not to forget the fact that if you target the Raven before he lays one down, he can't do anything and he will have taken damage.
=================================================
dave333:

Is roach/ling any good against thor/hellion? I also had blings in the mix too to kill scvs but 6 thors was just really strong and my roaches died to them.

I guess my biggest failing was a failure in expanding after crushing his push.

Yes, you should have expanded. You had him down, could have expanded - and Zerg NEED to expand, even if you don't saturate the bases you need Larva producers and Spawn Larvae is only every 40 seconds.

As for the Mutalisk idea, you were on the right track. Unfortunately, lack of scouting is what deterred you. Try a few changelings. Even if the Changeling dies, you at least get to see what was scouting him. Chances are, your Changeling will die to his army in less than 10 seconds, but you will be able to see what killed your Changeling(s), and that's basically your opponent telling you what he's doing for 25 energy.

[Hot Sauce]

Lol wow rage! Easy there, no need for the insults. Anyways,

You shouldn't wall in against Terran. All their units are ranged, so they'll snipe all your buildings that are close to the edge.

A 2 warp gate refers to how many gates you have up before the expansion. Why you would automatically assume that I would only have 2 warp gates even after the expansion is saturated is beyond me. o_O

I already said this in my last post, but I'll repeat it. HT cannot come out quite fast enough to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack. Unless you fast tech to HT on 1 base, which then leaves you vulnerable to a whole host of Terran 1 base timing attacks. Including cloaked banshees.

I fear that your content has deviated towards actually trying to find a solution for the problem that I'm facing, to just trying to prove me wrong (for some odd reason). It's a Starcraft 2 thread, let's not get carried away here :P

[soyizgood]

I'm thinking of using ghosts a bit, at least in co-op. David Kim's battle report had those ghosts pwning the protoss. I still think the ghost rifles look dorky and that it's difficult to group manage them, but I can at least fool around with it. I suck at micro with reapers and probably would suck with hellions.

I hate using SCVs to repair armored units, especially during battles. Oh how I long for the Science Vessel.... Science hurts, indeed.

[GetBetterer]

Hot_Sauce:

I already said this in my last post, but I'll repeat it. HT cannot come out quite fast enough to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack. Unless you fast tech to HT on 1 base, which then leaves you vulnerable to a whole host of Terran 1 base timing attacks. Including cloaked banshees.

There is a reason I gave you the build that I did...

And let's not forget you edited what you wrote at 1:40 in comparison to my post time which was 2:19 excluding my frustration.

All Terrans need to do in order to get A Banshee or even a Raven is one Factory which then leads to the Starport. Most people will have a Tech Lab from the Factory or Barracks to attach it on to before that.

Let's not forget any unit warped in by the Warp Gate only takes 5 seconds to Warp In, amongst other facts:

Standard Terran build:
10 Depot
12 Barracks (a little later with the new patch)
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command

40 + 60 + 30 + 35 = 165

That's excluding any workers in between. The Factory not being in there, along with the Starport, and on top of all that a Tech Lab somewhere.

Now, my build:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

25 + 65 + 30 + 50 = 170

That's only 5 seconds slower than the Terran excluding the fact that Protoss have 25 Energy Chronoboost.

Factory + Starport = 120 seconds.

Twilight Council + Templar Archives = 100 seconds.

That's 20 seconds faster, which well makes up for the time.

Also, you've stated your problem:

A 2 warp gate refers to how many gates you have up before the expansion. Why you would automatically assume that I would only have 2 warp gates even after the expansion is saturated is beyond me. o_O

Expansions are important, for any race but you're not scouting enough. An Observer, unlike the High Templar comes out much faster and is a great scout since it's the only invisible one. The Robotics Facility only requires a Cybernetics Core - which my build gets relatively quickly. The Observer will tell you what your opponent is getting and you can determine when, or how to expand as well as what units to counter with if you scout correctly. Not to mention that the build I gave you does set you up for emergencies and the eventual 4 Warp-Gates will allow you to transition to counter just about anything. Also, unless you give us more information on your build it's hard to identify, so explain your build by Food Supply like I did which is how...everyone explains it too.

soyizgood:

I'm thinking of using ghosts a bit, at least in co-op. David Kim's battle report had those ghosts pwning the protoss. I still think the ghost rifles look dorky and that it's difficult to group manage them, but I can at least fool around with it. I suck at micro with reapers and probably would suck with hellions.

I hate using SCVs to repair armored units, especially during battles. Oh how I long for the Science Vessel.... Science hurts, indeed.

Ghosts are amazing in Starcraft 2. Snipe is, in my opinion one of the greatest skills in the game. It's like Psionic Storm but much higher damage per second. Also, I recommend reading this thread to maximizing Snipe:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=155732

As for SCV's, I only recommend those for the Thor. However, there are two reasons why people send them out:

1) M.U.L.E.'s mine much much more than SCV's and can take their place while SCV's go out into battle.

2) The SCV is the ONLY melee unit for the Terrans. The next best unit is the Marauder but not everyone wants to go Marauders/Marines/Medivacs.

[Hot Sauce]

I edited my post because I wanted to move one line down, lol.

What you've listed supply by supply is not a "build" by any means. It's what Protosses do before they kill the scouting worker. It is virtually identical for every single Protoss going standard (not cheesing). You said you explained your build supply by supply, but it's seriously comical to think that 10 pylon (why not 9?), 12 gate, 13 gas, 15 core is a build.

From what you're telling me, and I want you to confirm this, is that you want me to go 1gate and tech straight to high templars on 1 base? And how many gateways did you want me to throw down after the templar tech? And you want me to get a robo out for an observer?

I know you play Zerg, but this is just ridiculous. How are you even ragging on a 2 warp gate expand build vs Terran? It's so incredibly common and effective. Everyone knows that Terran has a huge advantage early game and it eventually starts to even out the later the game goes on. Day9 has had several dailies on builds like this. You want to build as little as possible (just enough to defend) so you can get your economy going and go straight to colossus or high templar. You're also forgetting that Terran can tech pretty hard because they have bunkers. Protoss straight teching is so incredibly risky.

If you want the technicals of my build, it's:

9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
16 core
another gate
stalker
warpgate research
nexus

It's not different than a 2 rax expand. You know you don't have to tech on 1 base before you expand. YOU don't have to go lair->spire before you expand, do you?

I'm done here. I have nothing to gain from continuing this conversation. I'm trying my best to see it from your point of view, but it leaves me befuddled. It's best to call it quits then.

[GetBetterer]

TeamLiquid.net:

* 9 Pylon[1]
* 12 Gateway [1] + sent Probe to scout
* 14 Assimilator
* 16 Pylon
* 18 Cybernetics Core
* (19 Zealot)[2]
* 23 Pylon
* 24 Stalker
* 25 Warpgate research.
* 27 Gateway
* 28 Sentry
* 30 Two Gateways
* 31 Proxy Pylon

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy

All builds for Protoss, Terran or Zerg are all written in the order respective to their food count, hence "2 Gate this this and that" isn't really helpful because you can get 2 Gate at 199 food if you want.

Hot_Sauce:

What you've listed supply by supply is not a "build" by any means. It's what Protosses do before they kill the scouting worker. It is virtually identical for every single Protoss going standard (not cheesing). You said you explained your build supply by supply, but it's seriously comical to think that 10 pylon (why not 9?), 12 gate, 13 gas, 15 core is a build.

From what you're telling me, and I want you to confirm this, is that you want me to go 1gate and tech straight to high templars on 1 base? And how many gateways did you want me to throw down after the templar tech? And you want me to get a robo out for an observer?

I will admit, as a Zerg player I made the mistake of telling you 10 [Food Supply Giving Building or Unit Here] and Protoss get it at 9 generally.

Also, that's the starting build order. It transitions onto several other builds. This does not mean you run the entire build on one Gateway the entire time, or one base. Also, don't try to use Red Herrings, especially on the internet.

I would highly recommend reading that TeamLiquid.net guide, some things I do think are incorrect in my personal opinion, but most of it is legitimately helpful.

[dave333]

I would use teamliquid, find 3 builds for each of the 3 matchups, and just do those exact builds over and over.

Mechanics are what make a good starcraft player. See: Idra. His mechanics are seriously top notch, and though he may not have much else, he is still one of the top zergs in the world.

[soyizgood]

The way things are going with the patches, there may be some truth to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW1bVAtiTvM&fmt=22

LOL @ 0:32

[GetBetterer]

Dave, although I recommend that idea for starters from Bronze - Gold, eventually people will get to changing strategies and you have to adapt builds accordingly. I think only the Protoss have a lot of versatility since they can just warp out the unit they want from the Warp Gate.

[soyizgood]

Few things are worse than having a zerg noob as teammate vs medium AI. Try having 2 zerg noobs as teammates. One of them didn't even kill a single unit.

[GetBetterer]

That's why you do 1 vs 1, or 4 vs 4. In a 4 vs 4 you can at least learn from your allies.

Also, if you do lose in a 1 vs 1, you can go to your opponent's camera and see EXACTLY what he did.

[soyizgood]

Patch 1.1.2 is out. Not liking the changes (then again I play Terran):

StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty – Patch 1.1.2

General

Players will no longer receive achievement toasts while their status is set to "Busy."
The messaging when attempting to load a saved game or replay from a previous version has been clarified
Adjusted the amount of points earned and lost by random team participants to properly reflect the strength of a player's teammates.




Balance


PROTOSS
Buildings
Nexus life and shields increased from 750/750 to 1000/1000.
Void Ray
Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.


TERRAN
Buildings
Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot.
Supply Depot life increased from 350 to 400.
Medivac
Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25.
Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.
Reaper
Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement.
Thor
Energy bar removed.
250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (useable immediately after upgrade is researched).


ZERG
Buildings
Hatchery life increased from 1250 to 1500.
Lair life increased from 1800 to 2000.
Spawning Pool life increased from 750 to 1000.
Spire life increased from 600 to 850.
Ultralisk Cavern life increased from 600 to 850.
Corruptor
Energy bar removed.
Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).
Infestor
Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
Roach
Range increased from 3 to 4.




Bug Fixes

Fixed an issue where players could not cast the Feedback spell on Point Defense Drones.
Fixed an issue where the Phoenix would continue to channel Graviton Beam after the target died.
Fixed an issue that would cause Larvae to spawn and be hidden behind Zerg eggs.
Fixed an issue where players were unable to navigate to the Single Player page or watch replays after canceling map downloads from the queue.
Fixed a desync that could occur on user-created maps with custom mod dependencies.