Evert - Sabatini

[BTURNER]

Thanks guys, When I read Pike's post last night , I decided to sleep on a reply. While I was sure my factual basis was solid, and fairly sure my analysis of possible reasons, was a decent if incomplete stab, I was unsure of maintaining a respectful tone. There is no valid purpose served to my degrading or belittling fellow members in a tennis forum. Its always about insecurity or small-mindedness. This place is about learning with an open mind from the exchange of diverse views. Glad I waited. You two did a better job than I.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Thanks guys, When I read Pike's post last night , I decided to sleep on a reply. While I was sure my factual basis was solid, and fairly sure my analysis of possible reasons, was a decent if incomplete stab, I was unsure of maintaining a respectful tone. There is no valid purpose served to my degrading or belittling fellow members in a tennis forum. Its always about insecurity or small-mindedness. This place is about learning with an open mind from the exchange of diverse views. Glad I waited. You two did a better job than I.

Great attitude.

On a different note. When Sabatini first came up, didn't some of you or perhaps most of you get the idea that everyone thought she (Sabatini) was the future of Women's tennis and this Graf kid wasn't as good. That was incorrect of course but considering that Gaby reached the final against Evert at age 14 it wasn't an unreasonable thought.

Noting that Sabatini was only 14 and so good, did she underperform or did we overrated her?

[thalivest]

Sabatini both was very overrated yet also underachieved alot IMHO. Even though her results at one point were comparable to Graf she was never going to be as great and win as many slams as Graf. Graf was just too much more powerful, athletic, and mentally tough. However she also should have won alot more than just 1 slam.

Also were she and Graf entering any of the same draws with Sabatini still doing better. I could be mistaken but I am pretty sure any of the 85 events Sabatini did better in they would lose to the same player, often Evert, and young Graf was just unlucky to draw Chris sooner in events than Gaby.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Thanks guys, When I read Pike's post last night , I decided to sleep on a reply. While I was sure my factual basis was solid, and fairly sure my analysis of possible reasons, was a decent if incomplete stab, I was unsure of maintaining a respectful tone. There is no valid purpose served to my degrading or belittling fellow members in a tennis forum. Its always about insecurity or small-mindedness. This place is about learning with an open mind from the exchange of diverse views. Glad I waited. You two did a better job than I.

They didn't.
You suggested that Graf suffered from playing doubles with Sabatini, allowing Sabatini to figure out Steffi.
The facts say otherwise.

Steffi played her last doubles with Gaby at Wimbledon 90.
Until then she was 21-3 against Gaby in singles.
After that Sabatini won 8 of the next 10 matches against Steffi.
So we can say Graf suffered from STOPPING to play doubles with Sabatini!

Your post was indeed not very intelligent, don't you see that?

[thalivest]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

They didn't.
You suggested that Graf suffered from playing doubles with Sabatini, allowing Sabatini to figure out Steffi.
The facts say otherwise.

Steffi played her last doubles with Gaby at Wimbledon 90.
Until then she was 21-3 against Gaby in singles.
After that Sabatini won 8 of the next 10 matches against Steffi.
So we can say Graf suffered from STOPPING to play doubles with Sabatini!

Your post was indeed not very intelligent, don't you see that?

Well according to you every match Graf lost for next 3 years from May 1990 or so onwards was due to her fathers problems or some other silly excuses so by your logic since all of Sabatini`s wins these 3 years dont count she has more real wins while playing doubles with Graf then while not any longer.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by thalivest

Well according to you every match Graf lost for next 3 years from May 1990 or so onwards was due to her fathers problems or some other silly excuses ...

According to you all losses of a certain player from 1995 to 2003 were due to a minor stab wound in 1993.
So please don't use the term "silly excuses" in connection with Graf.

The point was whether Graf "suffered" from playing doubles with Sabatini.
Which is an absolutely idiotic thing to say

[thalivest]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

According to you all losses of a certain player from 1995 to 2003 were due to a minor stab wound in 1993.
So please don't use the term "silly excuses" in connection with Graf.

The point was whether Graf "suffered" from playing doubles with Sabatini.
Which is an absolutely idiotic thing to say

LOL I am not a Seles backer so now you are the one who has no clue what you are talking about. I have said many times in fact I am one of those who think that the Seles career other than the possibly first 6 months of her comeback (which turned out to be her most fruitful despite playing only 4 events) followed its natural course and have explained why I feel that way many times. It is however true that you have many times tried to unfairly discredit the success Seles, Sabatini, and others had in the early 90s due to the problems of Graf. So why would beating Graf more often mean anything when you never give her credit for those early 90s wins anyway.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by thalivest

LOL I am not a Seles backer so now you are the one who has no clue what you are talking about. I have said many times in fact I am one of those who think that the Seles career other than the possibly first 6 months of her comeback (which turned out to be her most fruitful despite playing only 4 events) followed its natural course and have explained why I feel that way many times. It is however true that you have many times tried to unfairly discredit the success Seles, Sabatini, and others had in the early 90s due to the problems of Graf. ....

The real problem was that Graf suffered from stopping to play doubles with Sabatini.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

They didn't.
You suggested that Graf suffered from playing doubles with Sabatini, allowing Sabatini to figure out Steffi.
The facts say otherwise.

Steffi played her last doubles with Gaby at Wimbledon 90.
Until then she was 21-3 against Gaby in singles.
After that Sabatini won 8 of the next 10 matches against Steffi.
So we can say Graf suffered from STOPPING to play doubles with Sabatini!

Your post was indeed not very intelligent, don't you see that?

Here's the problem with your thought process. You assumed that the results of my theory would have to be immediate and thus correspond chronologically with the doubles play. I did not say or even imply that. What if before 1990 she could in fact read the Graf stroke, and yes, anticipate Graf's game and patterns better than other players, but did not have the physical stamina, strength and speed to consistently execute a strategy DESPITE the advantage the doubles play offered her Well that might explain earlier success in sets and erratic swings but also the later blossoming toward final results. What if the great success Gabby had compared to others depended on BOTH. Kinda in line with other's views on some of Gabby's weaknesses but expanding beyond them . Do you get it yet?

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Here's the problem with your thought process. You assumed that the results of my theory would have to be immediate and thus correspond chronologically with the doubles play. I did not say or even imply that. What if before 1990 she could in fact read the Graf stroke, and yes, anticipate Graf's game and patterns better than other players, ...

Because she played 25 doubles tournaments in 1986-90 with Graf?
You think she watched Graf's "pattern" in those doubles matches and that helped her when she had Graf on the other side of the net in singles matches in 1990-93 ... ?

OMG ...


Say, did you ever play tennis?

[boredone3456]

Originally Posted by pc1

Great attitude.

On a different note. When Sabatini first came up, didn't some of you or perhaps most of you get the idea that everyone thought she (Sabatini) was the future of Women's tennis and this Graf kid wasn't as good. That was incorrect of course but considering that Gaby reached the final against Evert at age 14 it wasn't an unreasonable thought.

Noting that Sabatini was only 14 and so good, did she underperform or did we overrated her?

Well I was born in 1987 so I really can't comment on the actual feeling at the time, but in the matches from their younger days that I have seen I think it was even at an early age, quickly obvious that Graf was likely to be the better player. Both had a variety of shots and weapons, but in their matches, Graf just carried herself differently, she even then had a lot of self confidence and poise that in the Gabby matches, I don't think was there as much. Maybe there was an attitude that Gabby would take the world by storm, I cannot affirm or deny it, but from my own perspective looking back, I think it was always going to be Graf. That being said, given Gabby's amazing level of talent so young, it is a little surprising the gap between Gaby and Graf is so enormous achievement wise given their young promise. I personally would say Gabby was an underachiever, She had more talent and ability then some players both before and after her who won more slams than she did , but she was not mentally solid so that would explain some of it.

[urban]

As it was written above, Sabatini suffered from bad coaching. She had enough flexibilty and improvisation in her racket work, to do well in the forecourt with volleys and half-volleys and a solid overhead (unlike the fragile serve). But since Gimenez, they wanted to model her into the second Vilas, with emphasis on the heavy and monotonous topspin. She made the same error, Vilas made: They neclegted their fine backhand and ran around the backhand to play a weak topsoin forehand. In 1990, Kirmayr did the right thing, to give her more room for imagination and net play. Her early matches with Graf had often the same pattern: they were close, but lack of stamina saw lose Sabatini out at the end in 3. She had deficits in stamina and on the mental side: i remember a USO semi in 1989, when Graf got cramps, and Sabatini didn't exploit the situation, but played all the balls into her racket. And i never forget the point at 30-30 with 6-5 final set in the Wim final 1991. Gaby was serving powder puff serves, but had the match in her hand, when she didn't let go a Graf forehand pass, which would have been out, but stabbed a weak backhand volley to Graf's backhand, who made the pass.

[nat75]

Well. According Carlos Kirmayr himself and John Loehr (the sport psychologist) it was Gaby's game which was affected while playing doubles with Steffi so they made Gaby break the partnership.
They allegedly said that Gaby's respect towards Steffi was way to high.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by nat75

Well. According Carlos Kirmayr himself and John Loehr (the sport psychologist)
it was Gaby's game which was affected while playing doubles with Steffi so the made Gaby break her partnership.
The allegedly said that Gaby's respect towards Steffi was way to high.

Of course.
21-3 H2H says it all.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

Of course.
21-3 H2H says it all.

Joe, Of course we have already established how little your stat actually said except that Sabatini did better than anyone else on the tour vs Graf during those exact years and thereafter. See posts # 18 and 19 and reread

Nat, thank you for your input. The doubles part of my theory as to why she did better, is now compromised. What you add makes sense and is consistent with Sabatini's even better resutls after they stopped playing doubles.

Everytime I watched those matches, I was amazed at how many of Graf's forehands, Sabatini, not known for her on-court footspeed, managed to get back, when others could no and how she had a sense of when to be more agreesive. I put it to better anticipation, for want of any other conclusion, and theorized that like so many doubles teams in history, who often practiced singles with each other, spent social time together, planned their schedules together, talked strategy, and eventually broke up as their singles rivalry heated, Sabatini got benefit. And that still may be true. But Graf may have gotten a better bargain.

[thalivest]

I still cant believe Sabatini won 1 slam and Sanchez Vicario won 4. Sanchez Vicario ended up being the much better player, despite that she seems to have far less natural talent and certainly was predicted to achieve far less when both were coming up. Imagine in the mid to late 80s saying this little Spanish girl with this funky forehand would win quadruple the slams as Sabatini who took a 6-1 set off a prime Evert at age 14 and was hailed (maybe along with Graf) as the future of tennis. Yet that is what happened.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Joe, Of course we have already established how little your stat actually said except that Sabatini did better than anyone else on the tour vs Graf during those exact years and thereafter. ....

During those exact years Sabatini was 3-21 against Graf.
That is not better than Navratilova with 2-6.

And we have established that Gaby's coaches wanted her to stop playing doubles with Graf because she, Gaby, suffered from it.

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by thalivest

I still cant believe Sabatini won 1 slam and Sanchez Vicario won 4. Sanchez Vicario ended up being the much better player, despite that she seems to have far less natural talent and certainly was predicted to achieve far less when both were coming up. Imagine in the mid to late 80s saying this little Spanish girl with this funky forehand would win quadruple the slams as Sabatini who took a 6-1 set off a prime Evert at age 14 and was hailed (maybe along with Graf) as the future of tennis. Yet that is what happened.

I hate the way we use the term "peak" so much around here. Because too often when we do it seems that we're dissecting people's accomplishments to fit an agenda.

But to me, the difference in ASV and Sabatini is that they "peaked' at different times. Gaby was an emerging slam threat in 1987 when she barely missed the French final that year. So I would say her peak was from 1987-1992. That's a period where Martina and to a lesser extent Chris are still around at the top, Steffi was collecting slams like some people collect stamps, and then soon Seles started doing the same.

ASV's "peak" didn't come until a couple of obstacles had been removed from her path around 1993 and lasted through 1996. There's no top 10 great in this period except for a continually injured and seemingly bored Graf. If Gaby's peak had come when ASV's did she likely would've been more successful. But it didn't.

And I can't argue with anyone who says that Gaby had her chances just like ASV did in this period. ASV took advantage and Gaby didn't. But it was clear by 1993 that Sabatini had lost a lot of steam and in some cases was just going through the motions. Had ASV's peak come when Gaby's did, I don't think ASV would've done any better than Sabatini.

Lots of hypotheticals and opinions there.....

[thalivest]

Was the mid 90s really that much weaker than the early 90s? Graf was way better in the mid 90s, she was actually in a major slump in the early 90s. Seles was obviously gone which is a big minus. Sanchez was much better in the mid 90s. Sabatini was much worse in the mid 90s. Novotna and Pierce were much better in the mid 90s. Capriati was gone but she wasnt a huge contender anyway then. Navratilova was weaker or gone in the mid 90s vs the early 90s. Martinez was much better in the mid 90s. Fernandez was worse in the mid 90s than the early 90s.

I wouldnt say there is a huge difference overall. The early 90s was maybe a bit stronger but not much. The early 90s had a top 5 of a peak Seles, badly slumping Graf, peak Sabatini, aging and clearly past her prime Navratilova, and still developing Sanchez Vicario with a supporting cast of pre puberty Capriati, pre prime Novotna, and Fernandez. The mid 90s had a top 5 of Graf, peak Sanchez, Novotna, Pierce, peak Martinez, post stabbing Seles, and a supporting cast of Date, past her prime Sabatini, and Huber, and an even older Martina.

The big thing for Sanchez Vicario is Graf was a much easier matchup for her than Seles was, despite that Graf is better than Seles. So Seles being gone was the biggest possible plus for her.

Comparing her to Sabatini though Sanchez Vicario beat Graf 4 times in slams. Sabatini did only once. Sanchez Vicario beat Seles in a slam final. Sabatini never beat Seles in a slam.

We also know Sanchez Vicario not even in her prime won 1 slam in that period of Sabatini's prime which was the same # Sabatini won and she beat a much stronger Graf than the version Sabatini beat to win hers. So I wouldnt be so sure had Sanchez hit her prime then she wouldnt have done better than Sabatini still, though I agree she probably wouldnt have done as well as she did.

Sanchez Vicario just became a better player than Sabatini through very hard work, recognition of what she needed to improve, better prioritization, often better court smarts, superior determination, and much bigger fighting qualities.

[athiker]

Originally Posted by scootad.

I especially loved that clip of a 14 year old Gaby in the final vs. Evert at Hilton Head.

She really had an imposing game for a 14 year old. That topspin one hander was quite amazing for such a youngster. The commentary was quite entertaining, Bud Collins seemed enamoured with her. They also mentioned the 15 year old Graf having made the semis at the same tournament.

I do think for as much potential as she had at that age, she really did not progress the way she should have. Her groundies could have gotten heavier, should have developed her net game even further after the '90 USO and definitely should have worked on a better serve.

Did anyone catch the comments about how this match with Evert was Sabatini's third match of the day?! Mention was around 4:20 of the first clip...1985 Family Circle Cup. I was a bit unsure if it was also Evert's third...at about 8:30 they seem to indicate this was only Evert's second match of the day. Evert was to play doubles later in the day however. Sabatini definitely seemed to be dragging a bit late in the match vs. earlier.