who's natural? who's manufactured?

[WildVolley]

Tennis is a skill based sport that is becoming increasingly athletic, so it is a mixture of raw talent and practice with today's pros.

There are some very good ball strikers out there at the junior level who will never be top 100 pros because they lack the athletic movement ability of the top pros.

[aimr75]

Originally Posted by Winky

I had the hand-eye coordination, the instruction, but I wound up a 5'8" small-framed guy and Tiger wound up 6'1" and well proportioned for the game. There was no way, given my genetics, I could ever compete with the top 100 players in the world, so oh well.

Originally Posted by Winky

No, that's what you've decided to focus on. My point was that you need to have *everything*... if you have one thing that makes it more difficult for you to compete--and in modern sports that's largely physical power which involves stature--then you almost assuredly will fall out.

No, you decided to post your own experience and zeroed in on your genetic short coming, namely your height..

its fair enough that it is extremely difficult to make it in any sport.. and obviously the right make up puts you at an advantage, but all im pointing out is that short comings aside, sometimes it actually does pan out.. height aside, i guess these guys had that something extra that got them there

Originally Posted by aimr75

No, you decided to post your own experience and zeroed in on your genetic short coming, namely your height..

Not just height but small frame. KJ Choi is 45 lbs heavier than I. But again, you're missing the point yet again.

My point, let me make it yet again! is that I felt I couldn't compete because my physique was and is non-optimal for the sport of golf.. or indeed tennis.. or basketball... or volleyball. If I had tried to become a jockey, my genetic shortcoming would have been that I was too tall.

Come on guys, this concept isn't so hard to grasp is it?

[adlis]

Originally Posted by Ultra2HolyGrail

The opposite of not powerful.

Ok clown Define The opposite of not powerful in terms of tennis p3wnage.

Come on guys, this concept isn't so hard to grasp is it?

Talking about fat nobody golfers?

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by Winky

It's always interesting to me that so many people I talk to don't understand how difficult it is to be a top-100 ranked pro athlete in any sport. I'm telling you, it's almost impossible. I think it's because you just don't see all the people who tried and failed. They're not on TV because they failed. So you just see the winners, and don't realize that for every winner there are 100,000 losers at least. And 1,000 of those losers were just a hair away from being that winner.

I played with probably 1000 kids over the years in tournaments around the western US while in Jr. High and High School. Except for Tiger, not one of them was ever seen on a leaderboard in any major tournament, ever.

I remember one girl who played with the guys. She was very good, could beat most of the men, and was a sure thing for the women's tour. She is the only person I played with other than Woods I ever heard anything of, ever. This girl spent her entire childhood playing golf, and was one of the best female golfers in California when I was growing up. So good that she played against the guys. Here's what she did in her pro-golf career:

Strictly buy numbers there is usually only 1 best in the world in a sport like tennis and golf. That's a staggering number when you think about it. Even top 100.

It's not rocket science though. If the person has the talent they need to play and compete against pro's. Eventually if the person is good enough he-she will start to win. How many players truely were able to play-train alot against pro's and failed? In golf you play the course. You are failing at beating the course. In tennis, you lose to your opponent.

Most d1 kids play other college kids. They won't be pro's because they don't train against pro's. And if they ever do play against one, it would be like a first time thing. But i agree, the odds are heavily stacked against anybody becoming a top 100 pro. But they really are impossibility if you don't train like one and play other pro's.

[aimr75]

yes i know what youre getting at..

but if your only retort to Choi being heavier was the issue.. well, gaining weight, muscle is not that hard.. these guys, despite their shortcoming still made it in the big league.. talent and ability aside, they had the mental fortitude and drive to make it also.. their physical traits were not optimal, but they found a way..

this obviously isnt across the board, its impossible for everybody to be a jockey, height aside, they have weight restrictions.. im not disputing some sports are more prone to requiring certain attributes, but i only cited golf as my example

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by adlis

Ok clown Define The opposite of not powerful in terms of tennis p3wnage.

I take it you are not a powerful player then? Do you run around your backhand alot like federer and hit weak serves?

[aimr75]

Originally Posted by adlis

Golf isnt a sport, do you ever hear stories of tennis pros having Gastric bypass procedures?

Originally Posted by adlis

Talking about fat nobody golfers?

someone has a beef with golf..

[canuckfan]

Originally Posted by aimr75

yes i know what youre getting at..

but if your only retort to Choi being heavier was the issue.. well, gaining weight, muscle is not that hard.. these guys, despite their shortcoming still made it in the big league.. talent and ability aside, they had the mental fortitude and drive to make it also.. their physical traits were not optimal, but they found a way..

this obviously isnt across the board, its impossible for everybody to be a jockey, height aside, they have weight restrictions.. im not disputing some sports are more prone to requiring certain attributes, but i only cited golf as my example

I think winky is just being honest about his weaknesses as a golfer. He's not claiming to be as skilled as any tour pro of the same height. There may indeed be other factors that make KJ Choi a PGA pro (and multiple winner). Winky isn't denying that. He's just saying that his build was a hurdle that put him at a major disadvantage.

You're kind of implying that he's kidding himself and he didn't have the heart or determination. There's no way for you to know since you don't know him, so why not lay off the guy? He's not bragging or being a jerk.

[longnt80]

You need a lot more than athletic ability to become a pro. Athletic ability is very much overated.

First, finacial. It is not coincident that rich countries dominate the Olympic. Without money you won't be able to produce athletes.

Second, lifestyle. As Winky has point out, to become a pro you need to live a different lifestyle which many find difficult to deal with.

Third, culture. Many Asian countries don't look at sport as a living. They only consider it as luxury or a game. I know many guys who very good footballers but don't want to become pro because they want to follow a "real" career such as: engineer, doctor, lawyer,...

[GuyClinch]

Tennis takes both athletic ability and training. With tennis being a world sport and more people playing you need to be more athletic then ever. This is why the US is losing out - we aren't getting the best athletes in it..

So the premise of this thread is bogus. Everyone is both natural and manufactured. Without extensive training from a young age you won't be a pro player and without considerable physical gifts you can't be a top pro.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by Ultra2HolyGrail

I take it you are not a powerful player then? Do you run around your backhand alot like federer and hit weak serves?

So... Federer's NOT a powerful player? News to me...

I'm totally cool with the concept that you can get to the #1 position for 200+ consecutive weeks without being a powerful player (Hewitt did 100+).

Originally Posted by Winky

Not just height but small frame. KJ Choi is 45 lbs heavier than I. But again, you're missing the point yet again.

My point, let me make it yet again! is that I felt I couldn't compete because my physique was and is non-optimal for the sport of golf.. or indeed tennis.. or basketball... or volleyball. If I had tried to become a jockey, my genetic shortcoming would have been that I was too tall.

Come on guys, this concept isn't so hard to grasp is it?

The issue is that you didn't believe you could do it, so you couldn't.

You're limited mainly by what you believe is possible and what isn't. There are other things that slow you down, but plenty of great people push through that and become the best.

Justine Henin is a tiny woman, yet she has a beastly game all over the court except on overheads... LOL

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

The issue is that you didn't believe you could do it, so you couldn't.

Right.. that was the only thing holding me back. All the tens of thousands of guys and girls who fail to make it to number one just didn't believe they could do it

That's a very democratic and western and egalitarian ideal of yours--that we can all do anything we want if we just want it enough. It's something Anglo-American culture cherishes as one of its great societal tenets.. but it's totally unrealistic.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by Winky

Right.. that was the only thing holding me back. All the tens of thousands of guys and girls who fail to make it to number one just didn't believe they could do it

Honestly, after a few harsh losses, people lose hope and start doubting.

Federer knew he'd be at the top, WANTED to be at the top, worked hard to get to the top, and FOUGHT HARD to get to the top. He knows how to win. He didn't give up. Sure he has some amazing skills to work with, but the thing that held him back in the beginning of his career was his head. He had the belief, but he'd lose his focus on himself and his game as soon as a few things didn't go his way.

Plus, only one person at a time can be #1. Why do you even have to be #1? Being top 100 professional in golf is way more than enough to support yourself while doing what you love.

For tennis, it's a little tougher... Top 100 status isn't such a great margin for making ends meet.

[dunc88]

Originally Posted by GuyClinch

Tennis takes both athletic ability and training. With tennis being a world sport and more people playing you need to be more athletic then ever. This is why the US is losing out - we aren't getting the best athletes in it..

So the premise of this thread is bogus. Everyone is both natural and manufactured. Without extensive training from a young age you won't be a pro player and without considerable physical gifts you can't be a top pro.

I think it's a bit harsh saying the premise of this thread is bogus.
I just wanted to discuss what makes a top tennis player. Is athletic ability everything...I don't think so.

For instance, a video was just posted on tennis.com of Agnieszka Radwanska having a go at gold. You'd think she'd be a natural considering that, like tennis, gold demands a high degree of hand-eye coordination. Yet she almost misses the ball. (http://www.youtube.com/WTA#p/u/2/WKM_fUFPBlw)

Similarly, when sharapova went on the ellen degeneres show she was challenged to game of table tennis - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vAhPZvsx84okay. I know she wasn't exactly taking it seriously, but even so you'd think she'd be a bit better at it.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by dunc88

Similarly, when sharapova went on the ellen degeneres show she was challenged to game of table tennis - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vAhPZvsx84okay. I know she wasn't exactly taking it seriously, but even so you'd think she'd be a bit better at it.

Not exactly her sport. Plus, she's a natural lefty. :P

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

Honestly, after a few harsh losses, people lose hope and start doubting.

Federer knew he'd be at the top, WANTED to be at the top, worked hard to get to the top, and FOUGHT HARD to get to the top. He knows how to win. He didn't give up. Sure he has some amazing skills to work with, but the thing that held him back in the beginning of his career was his head. He had the belief, but he'd lose his focus on himself and his game as soon as a few things didn't go his way.

You've got the mindset but does that translate YOUR game to becoming a pro? Do you think you are going to be a pro. It's easy to say, hard to do.

Originally Posted by xFullCourtTenniSx

Honestly, after a few harsh losses, people lose hope and start doubting.

Hey, whatever lets you sleep at night. If you want to believe that all it takes is willpower and desire and hard work, then go for it. I do tend to make lots of western people very nervous when I tell them that my ability to play professional sports was limited by something completely out of my control. It doesn't sit well with most people, who believe that one should be able to accomplish anything one sets one's mind to.

Interestingly, people I talk to from more stratified cultural backgrounds--societies where there are distinct social classes and little social mobility--understand exactly what I'm talking about: there are some things that you just can't have, and you can't do anything about it.

It's alarming to many what little control they have over their lives. And then there are some who are "born on third base and truly believe they hit a triple."

[Mr_Shiver]

Originally Posted by Winky

Right.. that was the only thing holding me back. All the tens of thousands of guys and girls who fail to make it to number one just didn't believe they could do it

That's a very democratic and western and egalitarian ideal of yours--that we can all do anything we want if we just want it enough. It's something Anglo-American culture cherishes as one of its great societal tenets.. but it's totally unrealistic.

I agree. I am American and realized this when I started traveling around the world, third world countries especially. I don't want get into a debate with anyone so I will leave it at that.

[dunc88]

^ I agree. It's sort of an insulting statement ... there are so many things people wish they could do but can't and it's not for a lack of willpower.