Another Wegner tip...

[10ACE]

Originally Posted by 5263

Amazing the hate and discontent that some feel the need to express and I guess that is fine.

But for those who don't already have it figured out, I will offer to save some time for those still learning by highly recommending MTM and Oscar's work.
Even the USTA has finally come around and is having him as a featured speaker at events, as they look to incorporate his system.

I believe what people have been expressing is that- his advice to pull back on the ball and the clip of Federer doing so, is when it's a ball that's caught Federer out of position deep, not necessarily his stroke--Oscar is trying to teach it as an overall stroke- which is odd.

[papa]

Well, this does get a little silly with Oscar even though some of us might do things a little differently. I think, maybe for good reason, he's become a lightning rod for those wanting to vent. I happen to appreciate 5263's offerings in these boards but realize he does follow a couple of MTM folk who didn't express themselves or "perhaps" the organization very well - in any event they didn't come off too well at times. IMO, as a USTPA instructor, 5263 knows his stuff.

If, for instance, your thinking the kid in the video is all wrong, or being taught/given poor instruction, than you might want to evaluate what you really know. Do I agree with the entire post, maybe not but its more correct than not and the parts I might disagree with are more style issues/player preferences than stroke mechanics which is what I do.

Are these stokes for everyone, no but, IMO they are appropriate for the player involved.

[HunterST]

Originally Posted by papa

Well, this does get a little silly with Oscar even though some of us might do things a little differently. I think, maybe for good reason, he's become a lightning rod for those wanting to vent. I happen to appreciate 5263's offerings in these boards but realize he does follow a couple of MTM folk who didn't express themselves or "perhaps" the organization very well - in any event they didn't come off too well at times. IMO, as a USTPA instructor, 5263 knows his stuff.

If, for instance, your thinking the kid in the video is all wrong, or being taught/given poor instruction, than you might want to evaluate what you really know. Do I agree with the entire post, maybe not but its more correct than not and the parts I might disagree with are more style issues/player preferences than stroke mechanics which is what I do.

Are these stokes for everyone, no but, IMO they are appropriate for the player involved.

I appreciate 5263 as well. I just happen to disagree with this video and him on this topic.

The video is saying that players pull their weight back away from the shot to get power. Then they show a video of Federer with his racket over his shoulder as if that comes from him leaning his weight back. These things simply aren't true.

Players get their weight forward on 90% of shots and Federer's racket is in that position because he has a nice, long swing. My racket finishes in that position also and I assure you I DO NOT pull my weight backwards.

I wouldn't even mind so much if he presented it as a new idea that could potentially catch on and become the norm. However, he acts like pulling back is an intentional, offensive weapon, and it just isn't.

[5263]

Originally Posted by papa

Well, this does get a little silly with Oscar even though some of us might do things a little differently. I think, maybe for good reason, he's become a lightning rod for those wanting to vent. I happen to appreciate 5263's offerings in these boards but realize he does follow a couple of MTM folk who didn't express themselves or "perhaps" the organization very well - in any event they didn't come off too well at times. IMO, as a USTPA instructor, 5263 knows his stuff.

If, for instance, your thinking the kid in the video is all wrong, or being taught/given poor instruction, then you might want to evaluate what you really know. Do I agree with the entire post, maybe not but its more correct than not and the parts I might disagree with are more style issues/player preferences than stroke mechanics which is what I do.

Are these stokes for everyone, no but, IMO they are appropriate for the player involved.

Papa, I appreciate what you say here and am glad most of us have moved past some of the things said in the past by various posters.

Here is a Fed rally Fh (not on defense) looking much like the young man in the vid as it pertains to balance and wt shift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQ...eature=related

One thing to keep in mind about listening to Oscar's instruction is that he is not micro managing the player's stroke details. He tends to be very positive in his comments and introduce only 1 issue at a time to address. So with the student in the vid, it would be a misleading to look at too many details of the stroke not being discussed, like the small hitch in his backswing.

[Kunohara]

^

You're crazy.

[5263]

Originally Posted by HunterST

I appreciate 5263 as well. I just happen to disagree with this video and him on this topic.

The video is saying that players pull their weight back away from the shot to get power. Then they show a video of Federer with his racket over his shoulder as if that comes from him leaning his weight back. These things simply aren't true.

Players get their weight forward on 90% of shots and Federer's racket is in that position because he has a nice, long swing. My racket finishes in that position also and I assure you I DO NOT pull my weight backwards.

I wouldn't even mind so much if he presented it as a new idea that could potentially catch on and become the norm. However, he acts like pulling back is an intentional, offensive weapon, and it just isn't.

Thanks for keeping an open mind. maybe the pulling is more clear in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmtDfINpQk&feature=fvst

[Dreamer]

Originally Posted by 5263

Papa, I appreciate what you say here and am glad most of us have moved past some of the things said in the past by various posters.

Here is a Fed rally Fh (not on defense) looking much like the young man in the vid as it pertains to balance and wt shift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQ...eature=related

One thing to keep in mind about listening to Oscar's instruction is that he is not micro managing the player's stroke details. He tends to be very positive in his comments and introduce only 1 issue at a time to address. So with the student in the vid, it would be a misleading to look at too many details of the stroke not being discussed, like the small hitch in his backswing.

Actually I have nothing against Wegner nor am I "venting," it's simply so clear to me that this particular instruction is wrong.

That link you provided is Fed being pulled wide, it's actually quite common to see him finish with a dynamic recovery step, hence the turning of the body. Notice the Fed lands on the the right foot to recover more quickly, while the exaggerated stroke of the young player is actually landing on his left foot while he's in the middle of the court.

[Dreamer]

Originally Posted by 5263

Thanks for keeping an open mind. maybe the pulling is more clear in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmtDfINpQk&feature=fvst

I counter your link, with my link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvb...eature=channel

Nadal wants to stay balanced. Instructing to shift your body away from ball is simply wrong and Nadal wouldn't ask you to do it.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Actually 5263 is correct....today's pros (male especially) do pull to the side and back for quicker recovery. The game has changed from the days where pros would come into the ball more. Today's game is much faster and the players have adjusted. The need to stay behind/get back behind the baseline is increasing with each passing year.

And the last post of Nadal....he is warming up and even then towards the middle of the video he is pulling to the side, his weight is not coming forward.

Sure you can find warm up videos of pros not doing it....but in most cases, most rallies, pros are doing what is shown in the initial video. And that would be the correct way to teach juniors these days. Rick Macci does it, Nick Saviano teaches it, Emilio Sanchez teaches it through his hand fed balls where he 'forces' the kids to hit that way.

The girls still are taught to hit through the ball and use their weight forward more....but today's top junior coaches are teaching the boys the way shown in that first post.

[Zachol82]

Originally Posted by Dreamer

I counter your link, with my link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvb...eature=channel

Nadal wants to stay balanced. Instructing to shift your body away from ball is simply wrong and Nadal wouldn't ask you to do it.

I agree with Dreamer on this one.

Many pros will look like they are pulling their racquet back but in fact it's just the momentum from their swing.

As with Nadal, his reverse forehand has to come back behind his head because he is not twisting his torso in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmtDfINpQk&feature=fvst
and therefore his hitting arm has to go somewhere. The advantage of Nadal's reverse forehand is that he does not have to rotate his body as much, therefore cutting down on the timing needed to setup and cutting down the timing needed to recover after the shot.

Nonetheless, it is going backward due to the momentum of the swing, not because he's actually jerking the racquet back after contact.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Actually 5263 is correct....today's pros (male especially) do pull to the side and back for quicker recovery. The game has changed from the days where pros would come into the ball more. Today's game is much faster and the players have adjusted. The need to stay behind/get back behind the baseline is increasing with each passing year.

And the last post of Nadal....he is warming up and even then towards the middle of the video he is pulling to the side, his weight is not coming forward.

Sure you can find warm up videos of pros not doing it....but in most cases, most rallies, pros are doing what is shown in the initial video. And that would be the correct way to teach juniors these days. Rick Macci does it, Nick Saviano teaches it, Emilio Sanchez teaches it through his hand fed balls where he 'forces' the kids to hit that way.

The girls still are taught to hit through the ball and use their weight forward more....but today's top junior coaches are teaching the boys the way shown in that first post.

This is a excellent post, nice to see that there are some
that understand what is going on.Also good to see that
some people dont instantly attack because it is wegner.

[sureshs]

Student in the video seems to be falling backwards, while Federer is seen maintaining balance.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Student in the video seems to be falling backwards, while Federer is seen maintaining balance.

Did you also notice that the student in the video
who is pretty scrawny looking is ripping the hell
out of those forehands?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by tlm

Did you also notice that the student in the video
who is pretty scrawny looking is ripping the hell
out of those forehands?

All the advanced juniors at my club hit as fast as that

[Dreamer]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

And the last post of Nadal....he is warming up and even then towards the middle of the video he is pulling to the side, his weight is not coming forward.

The argument is not over angular momentum vs forward weight. Nadal certainly often relies on angular momentum when pressed for time. It is about Wegner's instruction that promotes breaking a steady axis of rotation by body weight backwards and to the sides for power, off a normal ball!
Nadal Rally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caP_B7f0wt8

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Dreamer

The argument is not over angular momentum vs forward weight. Nadal certainly often relies on angular momentum when pressed for time. It is about Wegner's instruction that promotes breaking a steady axis of rotation by body weight backwards and to the sides for power, off a normal ball!
Nadal Rally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caP_B7f0wt8

Exactly. He took a corner case and passed it off as a revolutionary teaching technique which breaks the mold. Like his racquet take back example which makes us imagine a strawman who runs around the court with his racquet fully back and looking stupid.

[Cindysphinx]

Interesting. I'm not an instructor or anything, but that kid's FH didn't like anything you'd see from the pros. It looked like he was almost yanking the ball

This Wegner fellow may or may not be a good instructor, but his explanations of things are bizarre. Speed of sound? Yikes.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Interesting. I'm not an instructor or anything, but that kid's FH didn't like anything you'd see from the pros. It looked like he was almost yanking the ball

This Wegner fellow may or may not be a good instructor, but his explanations of things are bizarre. Speed of sound? Yikes.

Didn't like the way his right foot moved, either.

[HunterST]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Interesting. I'm not an instructor or anything, but that kid's FH didn't like anything you'd see from the pros. It looked like he was almost yanking the ball

This Wegner fellow may or may not be a good instructor, but his explanations of things are bizarre. Speed of sound? Yikes.

Yeah. He also says that pulling back is using physics to get power. That doesn't make any sense. Day one of physics you learn Force= Mass * Acceleration. By pulling back, you're using less mass. I doubt the acceleration would change significantly.

Therefore, less mass and the same acceleration= less force and thus, less pace.

I trying to figure out how "pulling back" increases power. What physics properties would do that? Once the ball has left the racquet then nothing you do afterward is going to have any effect. So it would have to mean that "pulling back" after the ball is hit somehow causes you to do something different before/during the hitting of the ball.

All too complex for my simple mind