Pronation on serve

[toly]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

Some students will still not fully pronate.

They will overtilt their upper body to the left, fail to use a proper shoulder over shoulder cartwheel, and slice the ball without pronating.

If you force them to do the upper body movements properly, they then should pronate.

But giving them a clue about achieving pronation might speed things along.

Yes, you are right. We can produce slice serve without pronation. What can you say about this instruction?
Drop the racket in a backscratch position, provide appropriate supination, and swing up on edge like you are trying to use the side of the tennis racquet to cut the ball in half. At the last second before impact, you have to pronate (around 90°) very quickly. Is it very complicated?

[LeeD]

I say, unless you throw everything in your life, use a whip all the time, and watch pro tennis like a eagle, pronation is taught, along with conti grip and high elbow finishes.

[toly]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I say, unless you throw everything in your life, use a whip all the time, and watch pro tennis like a eagle, pronation is taught, along with conti grip and high elbow finishes.

The serve should be one of the easiest shot. It can be done from standard position. There are no hurry, no running involved etc. On the other hand, the serve is one the most difficult shot in tennis to learn. Because, there is no clear explanation on how to build the proper serving routine. Why nobody in the world is able to give us appropriate instructions for tennis serve?

[LeeD]

Fully agree, should be the easiest shot to learn, but....
You don't practice serves nearly as often as groundie forehands.
Practice alone is no fun.
So you get a partner, he wants to "hit", not work on serves and returns. Everyone needs practice on serving and returning. Hardly anyone practices those.
Hard to set a limit or ceiling on how fast and how much spin you really need. At your whatever level, your serve might be superb. However, go up a notch and you have an average serve. Goes all the way up to 7.0's.
Great serves illicit lots of non returnables, but some lucky returns. How can you separate the lucky from the learned returns?
Only the top players seem to show high elbow, slowed racketHAND, speeded rackethead followhtrus. The rest of us can do it at times, but when forced to NEED a fast serve during a point, tend to lag the rackethead behind, or speed up the hand, so the serve goes LONG.
Pounding it repeatedly at the net cord is not good, either. Almost every day I play old farts doubles, I can hit 3 netcord serves each service game, as many as 7. Not good. Talking first flats or first hard spins with placement in the equation.

[Kevo]

Originally Posted by Jim Clark

Is it natural or something you MUST create. Any advice appreciated. How important is it?

Well, whether it's natural or not is a game of semantics and degree. I think you could say that some level is natural, but if you want to serve like a pro and hit flat serves well over 100mph, it's probably something you need to put some emphasis on.

[Power Player]

LeeD is right. I find that I have to focus on not rushing the toss so the racquethead is not behind. It is one of the key bulletpoints I always think of when I serve. And people do not practice serve and return enough, I love to practice that stuff...same with overheads, which I would be much better at if I simply worked on them more.

[tennis_eel]

Pronation is simply getting your palm in, palm out and palm down through the tennis ball on a serve. If you do not pronate while using a continental grip on a serve, you simply cannot get your racquet face to turn around and face the tennis court. This is the reason most people will slice the ball when learning to serve with a continental grip, as they don't naturally turn their hand around yet on contact.

It's something that may not be natural to most players but essential to players who want to serve with a continental grip.

[LeeD]

Most of us here on the forum can hold a conti grip and hit a flat serve.
VERY FEW of us can hit that serve over 110 mph, IN 60% of the time, IN on important points, and IN when pressured and stressed.
You can pronate to hit flat, but can you pronate the CORRECT amount for your arm swing when you need it?
Maintaining the high elbow just after contact until the racket points straight down to the ground is one indicationl

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Most of us here on the forum can hold a conti grip and hit a flat serve.
VERY FEW of us can hit that serve over 110 mph, IN 60% of the time, IN on important points, and IN when pressured and stressed.
You can pronate to hit flat, but can you pronate the CORRECT amount for your arm swing when you need it?

Hmm, Idk about you but when I'm serving at 30-40, down 4-5 in the 3rd set, pronation is the last thing I'm thinking of.

[LeeD]

er.... When you're down, pronation is the one huge thing you should be DOING, not thinking about. Correct pronation for your swing speed.
If you don't get the serve in, the POINT HAS NOT STARTED!

[tennis_eel]

That's exactly what I'm saying. When I'm about to hit a serve on a big point I just make sure I go through my motions and hit my serve where I want it. I have honestly never thought about pronating whilst playing a match. If I wasn't doing it already I'd be hitting balls into the side fence.

[LeeD]

You don't understand...
Pronation by itself is required to hit the flat serve straight ahead.
BUT, on an important point, after thinking about strategy, ball placement, your physical reserves, his, you almost always swing FASTER or Slower than normal, so you have to be aware of your intended swingspeed, your actual body movement into the court, and account for some nervous energy or lack of....
Your actual AMOUNT of pronation needs to change with your changing swingspeeds, which is hard to control on important points...ie, you want to win the point, you don't want him to hit a winner, you're trying extra hard, so you force the issue and NOT control your swingspeed!
Believe me, you might hit 50% first flats for fun and games, but on an important point, guaranteed your percentage will wander down to 20's or less! All because you didn't control your amount of pronation!

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by LeeD

You don't understand...
Pronation by itself is required to hit the flat serve straight ahead.
BUT, on an important point, after thinking about strategy, ball placement, your physical reserves, his, you almost always swing FASTER or Slower than normal, so you have to be aware of your intended swingspeed, your actual body movement into the court, and account for some nervous energy or lack of....
Your actual AMOUNT of pronation needs to change with your changing swingspeeds, which is hard to control on important points...ie, you want to win the point, you don't want him to hit a winner, you're trying extra hard, so you force the issue and NOT control your swingspeed!
Believe me, you might hit 50% first flats for fun and games, but on an important point, guaranteed your percentage will wander down to 20's or less! All because you didn't control your amount of pronation!

I'm pretty sure I do understand. Your saying you need to control the amount you pronate and the like when you serve. But honestly, how can you possibly be thinking of all of this when your playing a match. If you are thinking of this your over complicating the game of tennis. Yes your pronation needs to change and the like but if you have to think to do it, you must seriously struggle.

I would hardly ever think about technique when I play a match. If I'm thinking of technique then, it means I've seriously missed out on something when being brought up as a tennis player. On a big point I'm probably thinking 'good serve and good forehand here' rather than, I need to pronate so my racquet is facing 170 degrees from the back fence to get this slice serve in.

[LeeD]

Possibly you have one standard swing speed, you might hit your serves the same way to the same spot, I don't know.
For me, once playing better than Div1 guys regularly, I needed a flat first serve to go fast, moderate, and placed into a small box. The small box is into the body. The moderate is for percentage. The flat fast one is for indimadation. That's THREE different swing speeds for a flat first serve, all needing THREE different placements.
Pronation amount is different for all 3, so all 3 need to be practiced and learned until it's second nature, but I'm aware of what is needed for each...unfortunately mostly after I've faulted.
That's for flat first serves.

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Possibly you have one standard swing speed, you might hit your serves the same way to the same spot, I don't know.
For me, once playing better than Div1 guys regularly, I needed a flat first serve to go fast, moderate, and placed into a small box. The small box is into the body. The moderate is for percentage. The flat fast one is for indimadation. That's THREE different swing speeds for a flat first serve, all needing THREE different placements.
Pronation amount is different for all 3, so all 3 need to be practiced and learned until it's second nature, but I'm aware of what is needed for each...unfortunately mostly after I've faulted.
That's for flat first serves.

Mate I assure you I can hit any serve I like and to complicate things less I use different serves and different spins for every way I want to hit it. I just go flat down the middle, kick body, slice out wide and I trust myself to be able to hit these serves whenever I like. My favourite kick is down the middle though.

[LeeD]

Wow, I thought I was conceited.
If you can hit every serve, you must be a pretty good player.
I can hit all the serves I mentioned, but I'm still a falling down to 3 range player.
Your rankings don't get rated by your serves alone.

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Wow, I thought I was conceited.
If you can hit every serve, you must be a pretty good player.
I can hit all the serves I mentioned, but I'm still a falling down to 3 range player.
Your rankings don't get rated by your serves alone.

You do have to serve every 2nd game so it is one of the most important things. However, whenever I have ever served in my tennis life I have never thought of how much pronation I require... it just happens.

[LeeD]

Me, I pronate too early, ball hits net.
Pronate too late, ball sails long.
So when I vary my swingspeeds, I have to be aware of the timing and the amount of the pronating.
Worst thing is to be amped into swinging too fast, but forgetting to pronate early enough...serve goes long with some backspin component.
For me, to get that really chest high bouncing POP on first flats, a really loose wrist, jello elbows, and correct TIMING on the pronation. So I gotta think about it.

[tennis_eel]

Epic double post, apologies.
See i agree the timing has to change on your swingspeed. But before a big point, I don't want to be thinking... right I need to vary my swingspeed here and pronate a lot earlier and keep my wrist loose and drive.
I just want to think, I've done this before, I've hit this serve a thousand times, I can make this serve any day of the week and hit it.
I agree with what your saying, but if you do enough work while training, you'll be able to time your pronation correctly in your sleep.

[OrangeOne]

Originally Posted by LeeD

You don't understand...
Pronation by itself is required to hit the flat serve straight ahead.
BUT, on an important point, after thinking about strategy, ball placement, your physical reserves, his, you almost always swing FASTER or Slower than normal, so you have to be aware of your intended swingspeed, your actual body movement into the court, and account for some nervous energy or lack of....
Your actual AMOUNT of pronation needs to change with your changing swingspeeds, which is hard to control on important points...ie, you want to win the point, you don't want him to hit a winner, you're trying extra hard, so you force the issue and NOT control your swingspeed!
Believe me, you might hit 50% first flats for fun and games, but on an important point, guaranteed your percentage will wander down to 20's or less! All because you didn't control your amount of pronation!

a. You're entirely correct.

b. I could not agree more.

c. When I am under pressure, break-point down in a tournament, and I step up to serve, all I'm thinking is "should i pronate 23 degrees or 24 degrees".

d. I have frequently thought "damn, that serve wasn't the outcome I wanted. Stuffed the pronation.

e. I may have - indeed I did - forget the word NOT in, or at the end of all of a through d.

For crying out loud. This forum is MORE obsessed with pronation than it is with lead, and that's saying something.

Serving under pressure is all about rhythm and repetition and controlling nerves. Control the nerves, the rhythm flows, and you do what you've done before so so so many times. You don't think about "controlling the amount of pronation".