Seriously About Pronation and Kick Serve #1

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by ReopeningWed

What we call "pronation" is the overanalysis of tennis stroke production; I think it's a very subtle thing that people all do naturally on their serve.

For sure. I think people think 'if I talk about pronation a lot I look like a genius'. Honestly pronation is such a small part of the whole service motion... I have never thought about doing it when I serve.

[Mr_Shiver]

Jeez, just because you guys don't understand it doesn't mean you have to be rude about it. Its not like he is forcing it down your throat. Its just something he probably thought was interesting and decided to share. Its no worse than yet another thread on the Federer fh grip or on which bh is better.

[OrangeOne]

Originally Posted by Mr_Shiver

Jeez, just because you guys don't understand it doesn't mean you have to be rude about it. Its not like he is forcing it down your throat. Its just something he probably thought was interesting and decided to share. Its no worse than yet another thread on the Federer fh grip or on which bh is better.

Just because people are commenting in the negative doesn't mean they don't understand it.

Analysis is interesting... sometimes... if it's correct. I can't believe analysis that has the forearm responsible for 40% of the serve.

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by OrangeOne

Just because people are commenting in the negative doesn't mean they don't understand it.

Analysis is interesting... sometimes... if it's correct. I can't believe analysis that has the forearm responsible for 40% of the serve.

Does anyone go out and serve for a few hours and wind up with a sore forearm?

[bhupaes]

I believe Brian Gordon's analysis of the serve also indicates that upper arm rotation (aka shoulder internal rotation) contributes about 40%. The analysis by toly is very impressive, and where I would tend to disagree is that pronation is "everything" in the serve. Those of us who have experimented with more shoulder/pectoral stretch, use of legs, etc, have experienced the enhancements these provide, although it is very diffcult to quantify the exact amount.

[tennis_eel]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

I believe Brian Gordon's analysis of the serve also indicates that upper arm rotation (aka shoulder internal rotation) contributes about 40%. The analysis by toly is very impressive, and where I would tend to disagree is that pronation is "everything" in the serve. Those of us who have experimented with more shoulder/pectoral stretch, use of legs, etc, have experienced the enhancements these provide, although it is very diffcult to quantify the exact amount.

It doesn't contribute 40% to the serve power though. If there wasn't a rotation of the upper arm, you wouldn't be able to hit the ball in!! You'd be hitting the ball with the side of the frame.

You don't swing with the forearm. Yes it has to happen on a serve but it's just part of the throwing motion.

[OrangeOne]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

I believe Brian Gordon's analysis of the serve also indicates that upper arm rotation (aka shoulder internal rotation) contributes about 40%. The analysis by toly is very impressive, and where I would tend to disagree is that pronation is "everything" in the serve. Those of us who have experimented with more shoulder/pectoral stretch, use of legs, etc, have experienced the enhancements these provide, although it is very diffcult to quantify the exact amount.

Please be careful saying "also", because in this thread 40% is being attributed to the forearm, not the shoulder, which is what you're talking about.

40% to the shoulder, that I'd come closer to believing.

[gzhpcu]

The analysis by Toly shows something simple: you get the most racket speed with the rotation of the entire arm and the racket head angled with the arm. Just think of a propeller: the shaft rotates slowly, but the outer edge of the propeller very fast.

It is the cumulative pronation of the upper arm, forearm, hand which sets the speed.

This effect can be accentuated having the proper grip for the serve, i.e., one that places the forearm and the racket in more of an angled position.

[gzhpcu]

P.S. Look at Roscoe Tanner's serve: It is mostly a blindingly fast arm action, very little knee bend, etc.

And, yes, it occurs naturally, if you are loose in your arm and grip (and have the right grip), and position your shoulders in an inclined fashion.

Thanks toly....

[tennis_eel]

I think I believe the forearm gives a significant amount of power after the work is done by the shoulder and elbow in the lead up.

But yeah you won't stand up, hold your arm up and let your forearm fall over the ball and get 40 percent power.

[gzhpcu]

Originally Posted by tennis_eel

I think I believe the forearm gives a significant amount of power after the work is done by the shoulder and elbow in the lead up.

But yeah you won't stand up, hold your arm up and let your forearm fall over the ball and get 40 percent power.

Yes, it is not the forward movement of the forearm, it is the rapid rotation of the entire arm, whipping the racket forward.

[toly]

Originally Posted by gzhpcu

The analysis by Toly shows something simple: you get the most racket speed with the rotation of the entire arm and the racket head angled with the arm. Just think of a propeller: the shaft rotates slowly, but the outer edge of the propeller very fast.

It is the cumulative pronation of the upper arm, forearm, hand which sets the speed.

This effect can be accentuated having the proper grip for the serve, i.e., one that places the forearm and the racket in more of an angled position.

It is the main idea of this thread. Thanks gzhpcu for clarification.

[shindemac]

Pronation comes naturally if you don't try to force it and stay relaxed.

Most beginners will arm their serve, and end up with a sore shoulder. To help the average weekend warrior, that needs to be fixed and the kinetic chain needs to be explained so they know how and why that generates more power than arming their serve.

[toly]

Originally Posted by Mr_Shiver

Sorry about my earlier post. I was at a x-mas party and had a few too many. I wish I could understand all of what you wrote. It sounds very informative.

There is no problem. It was funny. I also got drunk yesterday.
Thanks. Happy x-s.

[toly]

Originally Posted by Netspirit

Toly, do you play tennis yourself?

I play tennis around 11 years. It was irregular weekend stuff before my retirement 6 months ago. One of my regular partners is 6 times Ukraine champion; he has title The USSR Tennis Master. He is 12 years younger than me, but I’m still able to compete with him. So far I’m OK. It is funny; I dare sometimes to coach him. He also teaches me. This is two ways process.

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by Mr_Shiver

Jeez, just because you guys don't understand it doesn't mean you have to be rude about it. Its not like he is forcing it down your throat. Its just something he probably thought was interesting and decided to share. Its no worse than yet another thread on the Federer fh grip or on which bh is better.

I understand some of it, but it doesn't contain helpful types or instruction on how to hit the ball. Which is what this section is for

it is good to be able to calculate all of it, but helps not one bit on a court

[gzhpcu]

First step is understanding, then applying is something else.

[toly]

Originally Posted by OrangeOne

Just because people are commenting in the negative doesn't mean they don't understand it.

Analysis is interesting... sometimes... if it's correct. I can't believe analysis that has the forearm responsible for 40% of the serve.

This 40% data I found on internet somewhere and I’m sorry I just don’t remember where it came from. I asked some MDs about forearm and upper arm contribution. The answers were: these questions are very complicated and perhaps nobody in the world knows the correct answer!

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by gzhpcu

First step is understanding, then applying is something else.

understanding high level physics and understanding a stroke are completely different things...

[gzhpcu]

Originally Posted by Manus Domini

understanding high level physics and understanding a stroke are completely different things...

Most of the time, but here the message seems clear to me: keep a relaxed arm, use a continental or backhand grip to accentuate the angle between racket and forearm, keep shoulders and arm more or less inline.