Roger Federer and Modern Technique

[JohnYandell]

Guys,

So here is the long promised Federer high speed forehand at 500 frames/sec shot not in practice but a live match this past summer in Cincy.


http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/fed/


This rear view clarifies a few things about preparation, extension, racket face angle and swing path.

First watch how the preparation actually starts before he even lands the split step. The right outside foot is starting to turn.

You do not wait to start the preparation. It begins with the feet and torso. In less than 2/10s of a second after that right foot lands, the shoulders have turned essentially 90 degrees. This is called the unit turn. The hands arms and racket naturally turn as well as a consequence of this unitary body motion.

At this point the hands and the arms start to move independently, going upward and backward together with both hands still on the racket. This is the start of the backswing in my view because the hands and arms are moving on their own not just as a function of the turn.

This takes less than another 2/10s of a second. Now the hands start to separate. The racket hand goes up probably a bit further and then starts down. The left arm straightens out and stretches across the body, eventually pointing directly at the sideline.

Look at how all this happens before the ball bounce on the court. The backswing does not start at the bounce of the ball. The turn is complete at around the bounce. This full turn position and the timing of it is characteristic of virtually every player in the pro game. Notice also that the preparation motion is completely smooth and continuous. It never stops. There is no pause.

Occassionally on a very slow ball or a let cord the players will pause and that is porbably 2% of the thousands of forehands I've filmed. Rhythm comes from this immediate smooth continuous preparation.

[rufusbgood]

And then hit the ball off the frame edge?

[JohnYandell]

Rufus, Yes exactly hit the ball off the bottom of the frame. That's my advice. Don't you want to be like Roger?

Just kidding. The reason I picked this one was that I think we can kill a few birds here.

BTW Roger stayed in that point although I am sure he would have prefered to hit the ball in the center.

But the preparation phase is no different on 200 hundred other Fed fhs. The mishit helps us see one of the problems in studying still frames. If you look just a few fractions of a second after contact, the frame has turned pointing almost directly downward. People see a still of a similar moment and think he hits with a radically closed face.

In the video you can see this as a function of the mishit. The ball is quite high and the face appears to be slightly closed. That was point I was getting around to. It's at most closed a few degrees on some balls.

[tennis_balla]

John, would you agree in the term "hitting through then across your body" on a forehand such as Federer's or pretty much almost any pro rather than just saying "hitting across"? Am I Making sense here at all? Just wondering, thanks.

[JohnYandell]

t balla

Yes. the forehand swing is on an arc. So it extends forward and curves across at the same time.

So click about 30 frames past contact and see how much he has extended. Click another 20 or so and see how he has come across his body with the hand at about the left edge of the body. But see how far forward the hand still is.

Now the swing can break off sooner and shorter for sure under circumstances, and the hand turns over in the so-called wiper more or less. This one is fairly moderate.

The point is how far out the swing travels as it comes across on the drive.

[tennis_balla]

Thank you thats exactly what I was thinking. Cheers

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Originally Posted by rufusbgood

And then hit the ball off the frame edge?

If you use hit with a semi-western forehand, shanking balls off of the bottom edge of the racquet happens quite frequently. It's not pleasant but it happens.

I'm a prolific ball shanker, but the benefits of the semi-western forehand (at least to me) far outweighs a few shanks here and there.

[salsainglesa]

Jab step! to the side
I think that the left hands point roughly towards contact point

[MixieP]

Thanks for sharing!

[aimr75]

Originally Posted by rufusbgood

And then hit the ball off the frame edge?

nope.........



ball deflecting racquet past contact due to a very loose grip

His racquet does look a bit closed in the forward swing, possibly causing some of his shanks though

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by aimr75

nope.........

yep......




Cheers

Ash

[aimr75]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

yep......




Cheers

Ash

nice one.. got it a frame too early

[Ash_Smith]

It really illustrates JY's point from earlier in the thread - one frame either way and he either hits pretty much out of the middle or right from the bottom of the bed! As JY said you have to be very careful analysing single frames from vids as they won't tell the whole story!

Cheers

Ash

[Chenx15]

isn't his back swing a bit too late? i think he's framing it because he is underestimating the ball, his back swing is late, and he moved his head too quickly. just some observations

[tlm]

The unit turn is before the bounce, but then the racket is held up just behind his head with the tip of the racket still tilted forward.

Then after the bounce the racket is then brought all the way back+dropped down to complete the back swing.

[Djokovicfan4life]

Thanks for posting, John. Loving your website as well.

[Consolation]

Originally Posted by Say Chi Sin Lo

If you use hit with a semi-western forehand, shanking balls off of the bottom edge of the racquet happens quite frequently. It's not pleasant but it happens.

I'm a prolific ball shanker, but the benefits of the semi-western forehand (at least to me) far outweighs a few shanks here and there.

It has nothing to do with his grip (which is closer to Eastern than SW).

Roger shanks because he, more than almost any other pro (Davydenko), hits the ball on the rise. Those balls are coming incredibly fast with tons of spin. It's not possible to be perfectly accurate in your estimate of how the ball will bounce each time, and to hit on the rise, you have to commit early. If you let the ball apex and start to descend, it's a lot slower and you have time to adjust to variations in bounce angle.

I suspect the reason you shank a lot of balls is not the same.

[Bacterio]

I came in here to ask if I'm approaching tennis incorrectly by not obsessing over the minutiae of a particular stroke. I always feel lost in threads like these. That's a serious question by the way, just wondering if perhaps I'm missing out on astronomical improvements or if this thread and others like them are just different ways to approach the game.

They do seem like a good topic of conversation for those that like to dissect the game in this way. I can also see the value some might find, but personally I'm almost convinced I would start disliking tennis if I approached it in this manner.

Oddly enough though, as lost as I knew I was going to feel with just the thread title hinting at what was within, you all managed to take it up a step and make it even worse with all these back and forth jabs at each other.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Hope you don't mind that I edited out your insults (most of the post, lol) to stick to the instruction.

No Stalking, eh?
What is your definition of stalking?
and for backswing?
racket prep? Does this relate to what you mention as "preparation"?
Do you use the term stalking in your instruction?
Thanks

Stalking/finding/tracking are terms which have been coined to replace phrases like keep your eye on the ball or find a rhythm. Their correctness cannot be proved or disproved as they are just a play on words to make them seem different from previous phrases. I might as well come up with a "strategy" called "keep you mind on the ball" and spend years arguing how it is correct, because it can be interpreted in any way suitable to me.

[JohnYandell]

Oh god, I feel another literary reference coming on. Scott Peck's classic, People of the Lie.

No matter how many times you make basic points about technique and document them with video, there will always be people with agendas that will twist it around. Now I am asked to explain his own terms to him. No thanks.

What I tried to do in this thread was show what one version of great preparation looks like. The whole shape of the backswing thing and where the tip points you can find top players with multiple angles including angles that are backward.

But for those of you who requested pure info my point is this: start your preparation with the feet and shoulders immediately after the split. Keep both hand on the racket as the backswing starts--this duration can also vary a bit.

And most importantly, get the shoulders turned 90 degrees plus, the left arm stretched across, and reach the top of the backswing and hopefully slightly further by the time the ball bounces on the court.

If you learn the feelling of your version of that position you'll crush the ball and have confidence in your forehand.


Got to go out to the matches at Indian Wells but more on the actual meaning of extension later.