Roger Federer and Modern Technique

[sureshs]

The first tennis book I purchased was Visual Tennis This was 2004. The photos alone were enough for me. Those days there still weren't too many videos on the net or it did not occur to me to search for them. I started oout with the forehand eastern grip and the footwork described in the book. The book would have a main line of instruction which emphasized classical play, followed by remarks like, once you are comfortable, you can incorporate more topspin into your shot, change your grip etc. The 1 handed BH I felt no need to change from the book, but on the forehand, I automatically slid to a SW grip and followed the advice of transitioning to topspin. TS came naturally to me as played table tennis as a kid and to this day, I cannot hit flat. But for other starting adults, I have found that they sometimes don't take to TS as easily as juniors. Many of them become good doubles players and continue to hit more flattish. Others like me pickup TS more easily. What I found from Visual Tennis (which I have now given away) was that it introduced me to a very easy way to start playing without the extreme grips etc which could cause injuries to an adult, and yet had enough hooks to add more TS and different grips and open stance as further options. That is the path I followed.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Got to go out to the matches at Indian Wells but more on the actual meaning of extension later.

thanks for this john. And glad you brought this last point up. I keep hearing this term thrown around: "extention".

I really don't know what it means - when I think of extension, I think of elbow extension, or wrist extension, or some other joint extending. But I get the impression that in the context of the forehand stroke, it means something different?

[Lawn Tennis]

One signature part of Federer's forehand is about halfway through this video. When the swing forward begins, the racquet head stays behind. The wrist falls back as far as anatomically possible and the racquet quickly follows.

What is your opinion on this? How much more racquet head speed does it create if any?

Almost all recreactional players I've met do not employ the described. Many professional players on both the ATP and WTA do not employ it either.

[Ash_Smith]

@Spacediver...Extension in this case refers to the movement of the racquet arm through contact. The arm (in a double bend forehand) is bent at contact and through impact extends up and in the direction of the target before coming across the body. See the composite image of Nalbandian below...



You can see the four frames of impact and how the arm straightens and the hand moves up and out toward the target (the hand is still on the contact side of his body), the last frame shows the start of a move toward a wrap-around finish.

Maybe the MTM posse will say this is "up and across" hitting and not extension, but therein lies the problem - semantics! What I describe as extension, MTM may call something else and JY something different again!

Pretty sure these arguments all boil down to different words for the same thing - and that kids, is why you shouldn't get your instruction from an internet forum where the written word is the order of the day!

Cheers

Ash

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Originally Posted by Consolation

It has nothing to do with his grip (which is closer to Eastern than SW).

Roger shanks because he, more than almost any other pro (Davydenko), hits the ball on the rise. Those balls are coming incredibly fast with tons of spin. It's not possible to be perfectly accurate in your estimate of how the ball will bounce each time, and to hit on the rise, you have to commit early. If you let the ball apex and start to descend, it's a lot slower and you have time to adjust to variations in bounce angle.

I suspect the reason you shank a lot of balls is not the same.

Really? It looks like a semi-western to me. Maybe I'm looking at wrong.

Haha, and the reason is because I'm no where near as good as Federer. I'm just saying whenever I shank balls, 90% of those shanks come off the bottom edge of the racquet.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Maybe the MTM posse will say this is "up and across" hitting and not extension, but therein lies the problem - semantics! What I describe as extension, MTM may call something else and JY something different again!

Cheers

Ash

well said in the broader sense of things.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Maybe the MTM posse will say this is "up and across" hitting and not extension

Yes, just rephrasing an old concept to make it seem like something new.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by Consolation

It has nothing to do with his grip (which is closer to Eastern than SW).

Roger shanks because he, more than almost any other pro (Davydenko), hits the ball on the rise. Those balls are coming incredibly fast with tons of spin. It's not possible to be perfectly accurate in your estimate of how the ball will bounce each time, and to hit on the rise, you have to commit early. If you let the ball apex and start to descend, it's a lot slower and you have time to adjust to variations in bounce angle.

I suspect the reason you shank a lot of balls is not the same.

agassi took the ball on the rise even more than fed and he never shanked.

I think rogers shanking comes from his extreme wrist action. the wrist action is what makes him so good. his arm speed and shoulder rotation is not better than the average top10 player, but he is much more flexible in the wrist.

anyone lays the wrist back, but he does it more than anyone else. that means that the racket will turn around the hand very quickly leaving little room for error because the racket goes on a very tight arc with large angular displacement. this means little misstiming=much error (but creates also a lot of speed of course).

here I illustrated this. between those 2 swings the forearm/hand doesn't cover a lot of ground, but the racket does.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

@Spacediver...Extension in this case refers to the movement of the racquet arm through contact. The arm (in a double bend forehand) is bent at contact and through impact extends up and in the direction of the target before coming across the body. See the composite image of Nalbandian below...

Thanks for the reply:

very hard to make out anything in that image. I can tell that the racquet is tracing a curved path (windshield wiper), but can't make out any elbow extension.

I also have no idea why elbow extension is even relevant in discussion of the wiper motion.

Can you clarify?

[Hewex]

A ww forehand has to have some across the ball extension...because if it were a WW on a car it would have zero extension and you'd hit it into the bottom of the net.

[sennoc]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I think rogers shanking comes from his extreme wrist action. the wrist action is what makes him so good.

Roger Federer does not use wrist at his typical WW forehands.

F-O-R-E-A-R-M.

"Small" difference.

...but I also agree that wrist plays major role

Can't explain everything here, you have to wait a few months.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Hewex

A ww forehand has to have some across the ball extension...because if it were a WW on a car it would have zero extension and you'd hit it into the bottom of the net.

I'm not saying there is no extension, because there is some, but actually if the ww was like a car, the ball is still coming in at good speed to give a good rebound on most shots.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by Hewex

A ww forehand has to have some across the ball extension...because if it were a WW on a car it would have zero extension and you'd hit it into the bottom of the net.

I'm so confused.

Does extension simply refer to ELBOW extension?

i.e. the extending of the elbow, which causes the arm to become straighter?

If so, then what on earth does "across the ball extension" mean?

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

agassi took the ball on the rise even more than fed and he never shanked.

Well... Agassi did use a behemoth of a racquet. 110 vs 85-90ish is a BIG difference in a player's hand.

[SFrazeur]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

@Spacediver...Extension in this case refers to the movement of the racquet arm through contact. The arm (in a double bend forehand) is bent at contact and through impact extends up and in the direction of the target before coming across the body. See the composite image of Nalbandian below...



You can see the four frames of impact and how the arm straightens and the hand moves up and out toward the target (the hand is still on the contact side of his body), the last frame shows the start of a move toward a wrap-around finish.

Maybe the MTM posse will say this is "up and across" hitting and not extension, but therein lies the problem - semantics! What I describe as extension, MTM may call something else and JY something different again!

Pretty sure these arguments all boil down to different words for the same thing - and that kids, is why you shouldn't get your instruction from an internet forum where the written word is the order of the day!

Cheers

Ash

That image is from Hi-TechTennis.com. Whomever that modified image originates from doesn't want to give Jeff Counts credit.

-SF

[spacediver]

and to reiterate - can barely make out anything with respect to the elbow joint angle in that picture.

[5263]

Originally Posted by spacediver

I'm so confused.

Does extension simply refer to ELBOW extension?

i.e. the extending of the elbow, which causes the arm to become straighter?

If so, then what on earth does "across the ball extension" mean?

You ask some good questions here.

I think we are talking about any way of extending the racket thru contact out towards the target line past contact.

Not sure where "across the ball extension" came from. Hope it wasn't me, but out of context, I can't be sure.

IMO it should be hit thru the ball, but not the classic "thru the ball on the target line". Instead, "thru the ball on a up and across the target line" path.
Hope this helps.

[SFrazeur]

Originally Posted by spacediver

and to reiterate - can barely make out anything with respect to the elbow joint angle in that picture.

Visit hi-techtennis.com. The picture is from an animation.

-SF

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

But for those of you who requested pure info my point is this: start your preparation with the feet and shoulders immediately after the split. Keep both hand on the racket as the backswing starts--this duration can also vary a bit.

And most importantly, get the shoulders turned 90 degrees plus, the left arm stretched across, and reach the top of the backswing and hopefully slightly further by the time the ball bounces on the court.

If you learn the feelling of your version of that position you'll crush the ball and have confidence in your forehand.

This is complete gold right here and something I have spent the last few months focusing on more than anything. If you follow this advice to the T, your game simply goes up. Doing this has not only given me a more consistent and heavy forehand, it has also allowed me to finally figure out the best racquets for me and groove a swingstyle that works. Not to mention, I can hit absolute bombs more often and with a lot less effort.

More people should just worry about nailing this before overthinking wrist pronation and all the other little stuff that comes naturally.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by 5263

You ask some good questions here.

I think we are talking about any way of extending the racket thru contact out towards the target line past contact.

Not sure where "across the ball extension" came from. Hope it wasn't me, but out of context, I can't be sure.

IMO it should be hit thru the ball, but not the classic "thru the ball on the target line". Instead, "thru the ball on a up and across the target line" path.
Hope this helps.

thanks... so from what I gather now, extension simply refers to keeping the racquet face square to the target.

If so, then the term may be related to wrist extension, since keeping the wrist extended, or laid back, facilitates this effect.