Roger Federer and Modern Technique

[5263]

Originally Posted by spacediver

thanks... so from what I gather now, extension simply refers to keeping the racquet face square to the target.

If so, then the term may be related to wrist extension, since keeping the wrist extended, or laid back, facilitates this effect.

Sorry, but I'm not following you here. John says he is coming back to discuss extension. Maybe what he says will clear some things up?

[spacediver]

5263, remember this thread? http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=355111

same stuff, but there I didn't use the term "extension".

Anyway, right now, you said that extension in this context refers to "extending the racquet thru contact out towards the target line past contact"

To me, this is equivalent to keeping the racquet face square to the target, right? In other words, if the opponent is looking at your racquet, she should be looking through the strings, rather than at the edge of the frame. This is what I mean by keeping the racquet face square to target.

Now one of the ways in which you can achieve this is by keeping the wrist laid back. By this I mean that your wrist joint is such that there is a 90 degree angle between the back of your hand, and the backside of your forearm (see image below):



Now if you adopt that position of the wrist DURING and after contact, the racquet face will be square to target.


The key thing here is that the position of the wrist is what is known as wrist extension:

[5263]

Originally Posted by spacediver

5263, remember this thread? http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=355111

same stuff, but there I didn't use the term "extension".

Anyway, right now, you said that extension in this context refers to "extending the racquet thru contact out towards the target line past contact"

I don't think this is on topic exactly, as I don't think the wrist position is what is in question here. Yes the wrist is in the extension position during the swing, but IMO what we are discussing here is extending the contact zone or area, for example by stepping forward or pushing out to the target. I also tend to think of the wrist more in the deviations than extension, although IMO it lies in both to some extent.
make sense?

[spacediver]

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you mean by extension.

You say it is extending the contact zone, and by this, I take it to mean that the racquet face should be square to the target for as long as possible. Is this correct?

If so, there are a number of ways to facilitate this. Stepping forward would be one. Pushing out towards target (allowing hitting arm structure to move linearly rather than rotating across body) is another. Having the wrist laid back would be another. Do you agree?

[5263]

Originally Posted by spacediver

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you mean by extension.
If so, there are a number of ways to facilitate this. Stepping forward would be one. Pushing out towards target (allowing hitting arm structure to move linearly rather than rotating across body) is another. Having the wrist laid back would be another. Do you agree?

Not sure how having the wrist laid back effects extension, sorry.
Not saying it doesn't, but that I just don't get it or see what you are getting at. I agree the wrist will be in what many call a laid back position, but think that is sort of given at this point, to help you swing faster. I guess it also affects the racket face to the ball as well, like you say in the other thread.

[JohnYandell]

This discussion is getting good! I have a lot of stuff to add--heading up to the Shasta forrest tonight with my wife to recover from Indian Wells...BUT the good news is we have internet at the house.

[spacediver]

looking forward to it John - glad the Indian Wells experience was so positive for you.

[Lawn Tennis]

Will somebody give their input on this question? It's been vaguely covered in this thread, and I would really appreciate an an opinion.

Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

One signature part of Federer's forehand is about halfway through this video. When the swing forward begins, the racquet head stays behind. The wrist falls back as far as anatomically possible and the racquet quickly follows.

What is your opinion on this? How much more racquet head speed does it create if any?

Almost all recreactional players I've met do not employ the described. Many professional players on both the ATP and WTA do not employ it either.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by 5263

Not sure how having the wrist laid back effects extension, sorry.
Not saying it doesn't, but that I just don't get it or see what you are getting at. I agree the wrist will be in what many call a laid back position, but think that is sort of given at this point, to help you swing faster. I guess it also affects the racket face to the ball as well, like you say in the other thread.

See the first post in this thread here - it explains it completely:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=355111

If you gradually lay the wrist back more and more during the stroke, then the racquet face will be square to target for a longer period of time.

Isn't this precisely what you mean here by "extension"?

Yes or no: by extension, do you mean that the racquet face is square to target?

[5263]

Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

Will somebody give their input on this question? It's been vaguely covered in this thread, and I would really appreciate an an opinion.

IMO it adds significantly to RHS and IMO most male pros use it.
I don't know about the women cause I don't study them as much.

In layman terms "extension" is the upward and forward movement of the arm outward. (driven by the shoulder) YOu see this in varying degrees (roughly measured by the distance between the hand and torso) and is combined with varying degrees of hand and arm rotation.

[sennoc]

Originally Posted by 5263

IMO it adds significantly to RHS and IMO most male pros use it.
I don't know about the women cause I don't study them as much.

It adds nothing. It helps to prepare muscles for fast pronation what increases power. It's important to understand that fact: the source of energy is pronation, not a "delayed wrist". "Delayed wrist" helps to pronate.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sennoc

It adds nothing. It helps to prepare muscles for fast pronation what increases power. It's important to understand that fact: the source of energy is pronation, not a "delayed wrist". "Delayed wrist" helps to pronate.

You don't understand that you can swing a shorter stick faster than a longer one, like when figure skaters bring their arms in? Wrist lay back makes things shorter.

[SlowButSure]

Originally Posted by 5263

You don't understand that you can swing a shorter stick faster than a longer one, like when figure skaters bring their arms in? Wrist lay back makes things shorter.

Yikes.

I'd stay away from using physics in your argument if you don't understand it.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

You don't understand that you can swing a shorter stick faster than a longer one, like when figure skaters bring their arms in? Wrist lay back makes things shorter.

That is when you compare two situations of rotation, and convert from one into the other. Angular momentum is conserved, so folding the hands in (decreasing radius) increases the speed compared to the previous situation. It only holds when the performer has stopped trying to generate more torque and is just executing this action of conservation.

In this case, there is a brand new production of torque in each case. In fact, for the same angular velocity, the longer stick will have more linear velocity at the tip.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That is when you compare two situations of rotation, and convert from one into the other. Angular momentum is conserved, so folding the hands in (decreasing radius) increases the speed compared to the previous situation. It only holds when the performer has stopped trying to generate more torque and is just executing this action of conservation.

In this case, there is a brand new production of torque in each case. In fact, for the same angular velocity, the longer stick will have more linear velocity at the tip.

Hey, maybe I'm off on this, but
are you saying you can hold the racket straight out and swing it just as fast as you can with the same effort with a bent elbow and the racket dragging in tow?
Isn't that why choking up on the handle helps so; by making it shorter so you can move it faster?
I know it works that way for me.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by chico9166

In layman terms "extension" is the upward and forward movement of the arm outward. (driven by the shoulder) YOu see this in varying degrees (roughly measured by the distance between the hand and torso) and is combined with varying degrees of hand and arm rotation.

Ok, so extension refers to the motion of the arm along all three axes:

upward
forward
outward

correct?

Why on earth would you want the arm to move outward?



I'm getting the impression that nobody really knows what they're talking about when they talk about extension in this context. People just throw the term around vaguely, and describe it with a lot of hand waving.

Let's start from the basics:

Is extension a description of the movement and angle of the racquet head through space?

OR

Is extension a biomechanical motion?

If it's the former, then I'm assuming that extension is achieved through a complex interaction of multiple biomechanical movements.

[5263]

Originally Posted by spacediver

Why on earth would you want the arm to move outward?

Is extension a biomechanical motion?

If it's the former, then I'm assuming that extension is achieved through a complex interaction of multiple biomechanical movements.

I think the idea for why is in classical tennis it was to increase control and power thru staying on line longer.

I think you are correct about the complexity of the movements in this classical approach to things, which results in a loss of power and control, which was the original goal.

[5263]

Originally Posted by SlowButSure

Yikes.

I'd stay away from using physics in your argument if you don't understand it.

Maybe the skater was a poor example.
Hey, I've been wrong before, but I don't need the formulas to get the common sense of how making things shorter helps me to swing them easier and faster.
You disagree with this?

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by 5263

I think the idea for why is in classical tennis it was to increase control and power thru staying on line longer.

How does moving the arm outward allow you to stay on line longer?

By outward, I'm assuming chico was referring to moving the arm away from the body to the side. So if you stand facing north, and punch the wall to your east, that is how I interpret moving the arm outward.