Cheating

[Brocolt]

From a therapeutic standpoint I need to post what I saw at my sons last tournament. He was playing the little Mos tournament were they actually make you read and sign a code of conduct on cheating and sportsmanship. The match started out very close and at critical points his opponent would call a ball that hit on the line out. They were playing no add so at 2 all deuce my son hits a nice passing shot on the line wins the point and the kid calls it out ( my son does not argue ball clearly in). Later, at 4-2 my son serves a second serve at 15-0 that clearly lands in the middle of the serve box no where near a line the kid plays it back my son hits a crosscourt shot the kid shanks it into a light and then says the second serve was out ( my son gave him the point after arguing for a few minutes. My son was so frustrated after that he served under hand to prove a point and this kid would not return it and told him he cant serve underhand. Nearly every close ball and even balls that were clearly in this kid would call out. The real frustration for me is that my son just let it happen, he let this kid just take the match by cheating. Talking with other parents watching this kid is known for cheating.

I will talk with him today and find out why he did not get a line judge or do something. I am starting to see a trend with some of these juniors cheating to win at all cost. I don't want to sound like a sore loser just need to vent if it comes across that way then let me have it. What can be done about these kids cheating and the parents letting it happen? My son is to shy to talk to the tournament director about it, and If I tried to say something the would bite my head off and say the kids need to play there own match with no intervention from the parents.

[andfor]

The best I can tell you is that you and even better your sons coaches teach your son the following. First bad call say nothing, maybe an extended stare at where the ball may have landed, second bad call say "are you sure" then if necessary because the call was clearly, beyond a shadow of doubt from you sons view in, have your son tell his opponent if it happens again he will go get a line judge. 3rd bad call go get a line judge.

Bad line calls in juniors has been going on since the beginning of time. Sometimes it's more noticeable on a match over match or tournament by tournament basis. From my view most kids are good sports and try to make the right call, lines and rules. I tell my kid if he ever feels like he's being cheated and does not get a line judge during the match, don't tell me your opponent was cheating you after the match if you don't do anything about it. Get a line judge if you're being cheated.

I think it helps a players development and decision making abilities to never tell them during the match their opponent made a bad call. He has to make that judgment for himself. Just know as your player gets older, you won't be there for every match. Also, telling your player to get a line judge can be argued is a directive and interpreted as coaching.

Lastly, the the opponents parents of the perceived cheater, can't do much about it. I will never approach a players parent to discuss their child's bad line calls or sportsmanship. Never get involved in a match from the sidelines except to support your players efforts. It's very poor sportsmanship and rude. I will however, if a parent gets involved in my child or players match politely put a stop to it by telling them "the kids need to play the matches on their own. I'm not involved, neither should you, it's against the rules". At that point I will get a referee to let them know of the other players parents or coaches involvement in the match from the sidelines. It's only fair. No intimidation and no coaching.

Referees will respond if you tell them the parents/coaches of your players match are getting involved from the sidelines. If you tell them there's bad line calls going on, they may go watch from a distance, but they are not supposed to go on the court unless requested by the player.

Not everyone adheres to my point of view. It works for me and keeps my blood pressure lower. It's hard watching your kid compete and even harder if you think his opponent is a cheater. Sounds like you may be a little new to junior tennis. I believe over time the good memories will out weigh the bad. However, it's the really bizarre moments that hurt and sometimes seem to standout most, they are short lived. Play the game for the positive moments and emphasize them. Your player will develop as a stronger one in the long-run. You will also likely have produced player who wins more often then not, a good sport on the court and off and a tennis player for life.

Hope this helps.

[chalkflewup]

I like your point of view. My kid will fight for fairness and make sure that anyone within an ear shout is aware after the 2nd offense.

I might also add that parents can and should get involved after the match by filing a grievance. I would only do this for the kids with chronic vision problems. Believe me, you're doing the kid a favor by making the USTA aware of the serial offenders. Most parents don't want to get involved which is understandable but, a handful of kids need to be put on notice so that they will hopefully make the right turn when they come to a fork in the road.

[jkang909]

karma... what comes around, goes around

[myservenow]

I was watching a high school regionals tournament last month. One of the players clearly did not know much about tennis, but he sure knew how to call close shots out, purposefully call out the wrong score, and do the old play-the-point-hit-it-out oh wait your serve was out.

The other player just let him do it for the first set. Kept shaking his head like "Am I really seeing this happen?" So, "cheater" wins first set. Two games into second set, other player wins game, but cheater kid starts claiming score was only 40-15. Finally, other kid says that's enough, you're ripping me.

Cheater kid yells out "I want a line judge then." The kid is being a major punk but has caused a scene so they give him a line judge. Worst mistake ever for the cheater.

Cheater kid won three more games rest of match. So, the lesson is, if you are going to cheat, don't be the player that requests a line judge.

[Mingo.]

Man if I ever saw my kids cheating they would be out of that sport so fast.. Boo parents who allow their kids to make bad calls.

[PimpMyGame]

I know how you feel, and believe me it's worse for the parent witnessing this behaviour than it is for the child who bears the brunt of it.

In my experience of watching my son play junior tennis, the kids who get a reputation for being cheats either grow out of it quickly or give the sport up and disappear from the circuit.

For what it's worth, the majority of kids do not do this deliberately but of course some do. There is no immediate recourse other than get a tournament official to come and watch the match for a while, but all kids at some point play a hooker and learn the hard way.

All you can do is let your son know that he played well, and that he did enough to win the match. Reiterate to him the importance of dealing with this type of situation quickly and I hope for your sake that he doesn't come across too many of these characters.

Final word of warning for you - no matter how bad the line calls are, try to refrain from getting involved in the match or even worse with the other kid or his parents. The tennis court is a place where our children must learn to fight their own battles, which is often difficult for us parents to grasp.

Good luck for future tourneys!

[Rina]

I concur that it is the parent's fault. Of the cheater kid. Shame on them for letting their kids do it and watch it and never say anything. For all you know they are encouraging it. There was a recent match where a mom recoreded part of and her son was up 4-1 against a high ranked player in our section, and all of a sudden the other kid starts calling tons of balls out, ends up winning first set and then the match. Her son said nothing, just got frustrated. Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call out. He'll ask if you're sure say absolutely, they say usually cheater will stop after that, and get the message that if he messes with you you are not just going to take it. They also teach kids how to point at where the ball was, make sure you see it(of course it is clay). I am not saying this is the right way or that I approve of this method.

I myself, and probably everyone on this forum have witnessed cheating before. I myself don't cheat and most people I play don't, yet some people call any close balls to the line out. It's ridiculous and it doesn't help when organisers of tournaments do not use an umpire or line judge . .
Anyway, at the end of the day they can't cheat in an official tournament, so it's their loss. They're used to line shots being out but in a proper tournament they will have to deal with people hitting flashing winners.
It sucks, but they will get their comeuppance.

What goes around, comes around.

[slice bh compliment]

Originally Posted by andfor

...
Bad line calls in juniors has been going on since the beginning of time. ....

... don't tell me your opponent was cheating you after the match if you don't do anything about it. Get a line judge if you're being cheated.

I think it helps a players development and decision making abilities to never tell them during the match their opponent made a bad call. He has to make that judgment for himself. ...

Never get involved in a match from the sidelines except to support your players efforts. ....

It's only fair. No intimidation and no coaching.

...

Play the game for the positive moments and emphasize them. Your player will develop as a stronger one in the long-run. .....

Temendous post. Good long-term view. There is no place on the internet for such sound logic and wonderful perspective.

Originally Posted by Rina

...Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call it out...

Some idiot coaches and many parents teach that here in the States, too. They call it a 'retaliatory call' or 'cheating them back'.
I remember being told to do that once and thinking, nah, two wrongs don't make a right.
I also remember Arthur Ashe saying to just use the word, 'unacceptable' when faced with an obvious hook. But to never hook back.

As a former player, a former coach and a tennis parent here is what I'd want my kid to do if he ran into a cheater.

1. First bad call:
Hey, honest mistake there. You probably saw that out, but seriously, my shot got the line. The line is good. We cool?

Second bad call: You sure about that call? I get it, man -- it is your call. But it is unacceptable. You really want to win a point like that? I want to play a good, hard, clean, honest match. Don't you?

Third hook: Are you sure about that call? Unacceptable. Do you want me to hook you right back on the next point...or just get a linejudge? I am going to the tournament desk to get a linejudge so this doesn't happen again today.

2. Scoring trouble: call the score out on every point before the first serve. If the server does not do it, ask him to please call it out loudly enough to hear.

3. Big picture: Play a little less close to the lines. Understand that a few point here and there rarely make the match. It's important to see the whole picture, not just fume over a few points.

I once lost a big, tight, semifinal match because I got hooked incessantly after going up a set and a break. I got angry and it showed in my tennis. I deserved to lose because I got rattled. I waited WAY too long before I got a linejudge. I did not see it that way at age 14 in a really big Grand Prix tournament, but I realize that now. I could have handled it much, much better. Instead, the other kid (top seed, nationally ranked, heavily favored) played me like a fiddle, and won the tournament. Rode it all the way to DI college tennis, where stuff like this does not work as well (roving officials). We beat him in dubs in college. Never got another crack at him in singles, unfortunately. Maybe one day in 50s or something, hahah.

andfor, thanks for your post.

[North]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

I might also add that parents can and should get involved after the match by filing a grievance.

Most parents don't want to get involved which is understandable but, a handful of kids need to be put on notice so that they will hopefully make the right turn when they come to a fork in the road.

I have seen this actually work. The cheater was well known to be such by other kids and parents. About a dozen parents filed grievances within a very short period of time after the cheater played back to back tournaments. The cheaters parents raised a stink but the USTA actually sent a covert operative (lol - that's how we referred to it after we found out) to observe the cheater's matches. The most surprising thing, really, was that somebody at USTA actually grew a pair and did something about it.

[BMC9670]

Originally Posted by North

I have seen this actually work. The cheater was well known to be such by other kids and parents. About a dozen parents filed grievances within a very short period of time after the cheater played back to back tournaments. The cheaters parents raised a stink but the USTA actually sent a covert operative (lol - that's how we referred to it after we found out) to observe the cheater's matches. The most surprising thing, really, was that somebody at USTA actually grew a pair and did something about it.

What happened to this player after being observed? What was the action/outcome?

[North]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

What happened to this player after being observed? What was the action/outcome?

The USTA made it so he would have to have an official monitoring all his matches - they were even going to charge him for it. It became a moot point, really, because it wound up being slow death by ostracism - lol. Between everyone knowing the kid was a cheater and the kids (and a few of the parents) jeering "hey cheater" all the time, the kid stopped playing in our area. I've never seen, or heard of, any action quite this drastic but wish it would happen more often. Asking kids to stand up to bullies (which the cheaters essentially are) does not relieve us (adults/parents) from stepping in and stopping the bullies/cheaters.

I have to admit I am somewhat cynical and can't help but wonder whose kid the cheater cheated out of a match (?USTA official, local politician?). I hope it really was justice being done by people who care about doing the right thing.

[gauchotennis]

Brocolt-
This is not a new situation. As long as their have been sporting events there has been cheating of one form or another. What's the phrase about baseball..."if you ain't cheating you aren't trying"
However, as a coach 10 yrs ago I used to say wait for 3 bad calls then go and get an umpire. The same old line about a couple bad calls do not add up to the multiple unforced errors you make etc..

In 2011, I say 1 bad call because in the last decade the cheating has got so bad that you have to send a message immediately. It is almost a part of strategy (cheating) now to get you off of your game, stalling, excessive bathroom breaks, etc.

This type of behavior is not only tolerated but taught. I now tell all of the girls I coach that if your opponent needs to use the restroom....you do too!! because if you don't go with them, their coach or mom may be in the bathroom with them giving them strategy/coaching, this happens often in tournaments.

So as a parent or coach the main thing to do is educate period.
Information is the key, and the great thing is your child does not have to be nasty about it at all, just tell their opponent that they feel uncomfortable with the calls and having a linesman will remove the pressure and we can just play tennis.

[slice bh compliment]

How does that story end?

2023:

That kid grew up to be a college graduate, and a loyal husband and father. A tennis dad who lives vicariously through his kids through good tennis, good sportsmanship and a healthy respect for others/

Or: suspended for academic fraud in college. Drugs. Crime. Larceny.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by slice bh compliment

andfor, thanks for your post.

Thanks Slice. I've seen this from every perspective. Just when you think you've seen it all a new situation comes up.

I could talk on this issue for some time. I will say blaming the parents is not always the answer. For chronic cheaters maybe. For one perceived bad match of line calls, I myself, am cautious in passing judgment on players, parents and coaches. I don't feel I'm naive either. I can't tell you how many times I've heard about so-and-so being a big cheater, watched them play a close match, and never noticed an incident.

Nothing justifies blatant cheating or retaliatory cheating. I prefer to teach knowing how to handle the situation using the rules in your favor/as needed. Fair play wins out. Cheaters flame out.

[watergirl]

The kids all seem to know who cheats. The problem with getting the officials is that unless they are going to stay and watch the whole match, the cheater just waits for the official to leave. Rather than seeing prevelant cheaters in the 16's, we seem to see the cheat when I need to cheaters. For example, they call good until a 10 point tie breaker or the call good until the need the point to go to deuce or, what we saw for the first time at the 14 zonals last year, your ace is now a let. Unfortunately, a lot of these kids are academy kids and are ranked fairly high. There are some academies in our state that have nicknames referencing the cheating.

So I've seen my child let the ball drop in the middle of the court (after numerous bad calls), call it out, give the point to his opponent but let him know that two can play that way. I have also seen my child yell at his opponent for his family to quit making his calls for him and or quit coaching. Unfortunately, the officials system with just 1 to every 8 -10 courts does not allow for close enough monitoring of cheaters.

[slice bh compliment]

^That whole waiting until the official is out of view thing sounds way too stressful to actually be a competitive strategy. What a maroon.

If someone devotes that kind of energy to cheating, why can't they devote more to actually playing the beautiful game?

It's like the average US HS student knows how to make facebook appear automatically on their desktop and their iPhone...and sneak ways to devote about three hours per day to social pursuits, but they cannot find the Ukraine, Kenya or Holland on a map. It's just misguided.

[hound 109]

It will get better as your son gets older.

Other comments below:

Originally Posted by Brocolt

From a therapeutic standpoint I need to post what I saw at my sons last tournament. He was playing the little Mos tournament were they actually make you read and sign a code of conduct on cheating and sportsmanship.

Little Mo's? What age group? (note - always lots of bad line calls by 9 & 10 y/o kids. If you're kid is good enough, have him play in 12s.

I assume this was played in Arlington? Personally, I'd avoid Little Mo's altogether.....it's for the mommys who like trophys & parades etc.

The match started out very close and at critical points his opponent would call a ball that hit on the line out. They were playing no add so at 2 all deuce my son hits a nice passing shot on the line

If it was "on the line" (in your eyes).....then it's pretty much a judgement call.


....wins the point and the kid calls it out ( my son does not argue ball clearly in). Later, at 4-2 my son serves a second serve at 15-0 that clearly lands in the middle of the serve box no where near a line the kid plays it back my son hits a crosscourt shot the kid shanks it into a light and then says the second serve was out ( my son gave him the point after arguing for a few minutes.

Don't argue "for a few minutes".....don't argue even for a few seconds.... Make the call & if the other kid doesn't like it, tell him to get a ref.

My son was so frustrated after that he served under hand to prove a point and this kid would not return it and told him he cant serve underhand. Nearly every close ball and even balls that were clearly in this kid would call out. The real frustration for me is that my son just let it happen, he let this kid just take the match by cheating. Talking with other parents watching this kid is known for cheating.

Is he from Texas?

I will talk with him today and find out why he did not get a line judge or do something. I am starting to see a trend with some of these juniors cheating to win at all cost.

Definitely see it more at Little Mo type events & at 10s tournaments. (& lover level 12s). Once you're kid gets in Supers it will happen less. (Everyone knows everyone)

I don't want to sound like a sore loser just need to vent if it comes across that way then let me have it. What can be done about these kids cheating and the parents letting it happen? My son is to shy to talk to the tournament director about it,

Why would he?

and If I tried to say something the would bite my head off and say the kids need to play there own match with no intervention from the parents.

Listen to all the advice given above. Unless you enjoy drama & crappy line calls, I'd avoid 10s tournaments (or god forbid....."under 10s" tournaments) & not waste your time or money on the "Little Mo" tournaments (unless they're in your town).

You're kid will be fine....especially once he gets in supers (assuming he's in TX).

[atatu]

A couple of months ago my son played a kid and beat him pretty easily, the kid did not make any bad calls. As we were leaving the facility we could see his Dad yelling at him in the parking lot for about ten minutes while the kids was trying not to cry. So a few weeks later my son played the kid again and this time he hooks my son on every close ball and some that were not even close. My son ended up losing the match as he was really thrown off. Do I blame the kid for cheating ? No, I blame the Dad for making his kid feel he has to win (a non qualified match) no matter what...