Cheating

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by slice bh compliment

It's like the average US HS student knows how to make facebook appear automatically on their desktop and their iPhone...and sneak ways to devote about three hours per day to social pursuits, but they cannot find the Ukraine, Kenya or Holland on a map. It's just misguided.

Not really. Humans do what they need to survive. When these high school students enter the workforce, knowledge of social networking and mobile apps will help them find employment. Already, there are recruiters who say they will not hire anyone who doesn't have a presence on LinkedIn. When high school students started playing computer games, we heard the same dire predictions. Today, it is a major industry, and even made use of by the military. It happened because these young guys played those games, created a market, grew up, started programming games, etc.

When I was a kid, adults were complaining about us not knowing "classical literature" and "poetry." They complained about bad handwriting, inability to write formal letters, and not finishing sentences in full. Today, they are typing on the keyboard and sending short emails to me.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by atatu

A couple of months ago my son played a kid and beat him pretty easily, the kid did not make any bad calls. As we were leaving the facility we could see his Dad yelling at him in the parking lot for about ten minutes while the kids was trying not to cry. So a few weeks later my son played the kid again and this time he hooks my son on every close ball and some that were not even close. My son ended up losing the match as he was really thrown off. Do I blame the kid for cheating ? No, I blame the Dad for making his kid feel he has to win (a non qualified match) no matter what...

When the parents, coaches and player put so much emphasis on the outcome (winning over losing) often this is characteristic may show up. The others are burnout, choking and emotion control issues. Not always but often. Focus on the process/journey, practicing hard, playing each point with max effort and looking for ways to improve, just works better in the long-run. Yes always striving to win is included but the other areas need to be included.

[NYCtennis1]

Really good thread, everyone has to play a hooker at somepointso it's good to talk about it.

I've come across some a few times but one really stands out.

It's 4-5, i'm serving in the second set up set, two break/set points ahead of me. I don't personally know the other kid, but i have seen him around and we aknowledge each other when we see one another. After i use one of my favorite 1-2 punches i start walking over to the add court for the next point. I don't look up until i'm done bouncing the ball before my serve, and when i do there's no one at the other side of the court. He is sitting on his chair, obviously starting his inbetween set break. I walk over and confront hiim on it and he dissmisses me, i confront him again after the match and he tells me this whole thing about how he really wanted a good result this tournament (blah, blah, blah.) I finally say "and" then he fesses up to calling that ball at the end of the set out. But he probably wouldn't have admitted it if he won, but still it shows something...

Sometimes if you confront people like this they feel guilty and will admit or change their ways. It doesn't always work, but it's a good option. Just make sure you do it calmly, if you press to much 1. you won't get an answer and
2. it's not worth it.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by jkang909

karma... what comes around, goes around

Not in tennis.

[slice bh compliment]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Not really. Humans do what they need to survive. When these high school students enter the workforce, knowledge of social networking and mobile apps will help them find employment. Already, there are recruiters who say they will not hire anyone who doesn't have a presence on LinkedIn. When high school students started playing computer games, we heard the same dire predictions. Today, it is a major industry, and even made use of by the military. It happened because these young guys played those games, created a market, grew up, started programming games, etc.

When I was a kid, adults were complaining about us not knowing "classical literature" and "poetry." They complained about bad handwriting, inability to write formal letters, and not finishing sentences in full. Today, they are typing on the keyboard and sending short emails to me.

All valid points.

But, bringing it back to cheating.... are you saying that cheating is a part of what humans do to survive? No thanks (not the kind of humans I want in my my family, not for my children). Pretty sure you were not...you were probably just keeping it on the facebook tip.

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not saying facebook intelligence is necessarily worthless or bad. I'm saying it's sad that the kids know more about mobile apps than the basics of geography. But then again, there's an app for that.

Imagine the prospects of the young player who plays well plays honestly?
The job applicant who knows the basics AND is LinkedIn?
The grandmother who can weave great stories AND also tweet with her grandkids?

What's more important?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd take substance over a market created by video game 'culture'.

[5263]

I don't really see the cheating thing getting that much better as you move up. My 2 college age kids both played D1 and the cheating is still there, just smoother. In the boys, they had to go to playing let serves due to all the cheating. Don't even expect the outside half of the line to get an in call. You may get that call at times, but don't expect it.

[Donny0627]

Originally Posted by Rina

I concur that it is the parent's fault. Of the cheater kid. Shame on them for letting their kids do it and watch it and never say anything. For all you know they are encouraging it. There was a recent match where a mom recoreded part of and her son was up 4-1 against a high ranked player in our section, and all of a sudden the other kid starts calling tons of balls out, ends up winning first set and then the match. Her son said nothing, just got frustrated. Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call out. He'll ask if you're sure say absolutely, they say usually cheater will stop after that, and get the message that if he messes with you you are not just going to take it. They also teach kids how to point at where the ball was, make sure you see it(of course it is clay). I am not saying this is the right way or that I approve of this method.

I must say as a junior player that I have heard this quite often from my coaches. First bad call, leave it. Second bad call, question it. Third bad call, tighten your own line calls, and make close calls in your favor, and make sure you follow this with a long stare in their direction...

And if they give you any crap about it say:

1. Give ***** you get *****
2. Karma's a B!tch
3. Would you like to call a line judge? (Chronic cheaters will be reluctant to do this as it will screw up THIER bad calls...)

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by Donny0627

I must say as a junior player that I have heard this quite often from my coaches. First bad call, leave it. Second bad call, question it. Third bad call, tighten your own line calls, and make close calls in your favor, and make sure you follow this with a long stare in their direction...

And if they give you any crap about it say:

1. Give ***** you get *****
2. Karma's a B!tch
3. Would you like to call a line judge? (Chronic cheaters will be reluctant to do this as it will screw up THIER bad calls...)

Here's a new one.

This girl my daughter was playing was double faulting quite a bit and her balls were not just a little out but usually at least a foot or more out..

so she starts questioning every call even on obviously out balls and making a big scene with a big smirk on her face

and then my daughter says go get a line judge...so she stands there for a long time with her hands on her hips and then walks to the fence and stands there for a long time and then after a couple of minutes finally goes and gets a line judge

Then tells the line judge that she should get a first serve and he agrees with her because he "interfered with play" even though at the point she left the court it was just after she had faulted and was about to do her 2nd serve.

Her whole little act was completely planned and she obviously did not even believe those balls were in herself as she was grinning and smirking and her mom says to the girl's coach "oh she isn't serving well today"

Yet everytime she faults, she makes a big fuss about it and starts complaining about bad calls.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by slice bh compliment

All valid points.

But, bringing it back to cheating.... are you saying that cheating is a part of what humans do to survive? No thanks (not the kind of humans I want in my my family, not for my children). Pretty sure you were not...you were probably just keeping it on the facebook tip.

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not saying facebook intelligence is necessarily worthless or bad. I'm saying it's sad that the kids know more about mobile apps than the basics of geography. But then again, there's an app for that.

Imagine the prospects of the young player who plays well plays honestly?
The job applicant who knows the basics AND is LinkedIn?
The grandmother who can weave great stories AND also tweet with her grandkids?

What's more important?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd take substance over a market created by video game 'culture'.

No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

[Netzroller]

Originally Posted by sureshs

No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

Well, yes and no.
I do agree with you when it comes to the importance of knowing about new technology etc.

However, I think you should still have some basic knowledge of certain topics. You don't need to know all kinds of fancy stuff, but even nowadays some general education is important. Especially Americans have the bad reputation of not knowing or caring about the rest of the world.
This can be pretty embarassing at times -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI

[BMC9670]

I don't get it - why is it so hard to get line judges on every 1 to 2 courts at important tournaments? I mean, how many courts are running at one time in a tournament? Local players, volunteers, junior pros, high school or college players could all be used. With fees being so high, there are no resources for more judges? As consumers, entrants should demand some level of quality for their money.

[BMC9670]

How about this: Parents/coaches volunteer to line judge a match in a different age group or gender than their own kid. In turn, their kid gets a discounted entry fee. First come, first serve basis during registration until all courts are covered.

[magnut]

Some of you folks need to learn the simple fact that hooking calls and argueing nonsense is a tactic. It always has been and always will be used. You either learn how to deal with it or continue to let it cost you additional points matches and and cry like a baby liberal screaming .....ITS NOT FAIR!

Learn to deal with it or take up golf.

[fruitytennis1]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

How about this: Parents/coaches volunteer to line judge a match in a different age group or gender than their own kid. In turn, their kid gets a discounted entry fee. First come, first serve basis during registration until all courts are covered.

Great idea!
I doubt the discounted entry fee would be implemented by usta though

[diamondgeezer]

To the OP, I understand as a parent how frustrating it must be, but one thing I would say from my experience of playing endless junior tournaments (I'm 20 now), is as a parent- never get involved with line calls or involve yourself in the match. It's a recipe for disaster. I am not saying you did or would but I feel it's a point worth mentioning.

I have witnessed cheating in junior tournaments, but at the end of the day, as a player you should respect your opponent's call. If the call is out, you simply have to accept it. You could question the call, "it looked good to me, are you sure it was long/wide", but if they are convinced, you have to let it go.

As for "cheating back" (i.e deliberately calling balls out after bad calls). I think it's totally unacceptable. You should rise above it and know you've acted correctly. I disagree with getting an umpire/tournament referee. The match is just going to have a horrible atmosphere, that is not going to be fun to play in.

I want to win every match, but sometimes you've just got to let things go and know you've played your game fair and square.

^It's all easy advice to give. In the heat of a tournament, you get robbed by a few line calls. It's difficult to keep cool, but I think you've just got to let it go.

Regards,
Michael

[slice bh compliment]

Originally Posted by sureshs

No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

I appreciate that. I get that it's like that....but not with basic information. The US high school kid is really at an all-time low. Do we celebrate that by being happy he can do other, cooler stuff?

I love my job. I don't have a lot of turnover, but I do enjoy hiring good people. You can bet I'm not hiring the yutz who doesn't know basics.

Kids today.....I know, I'm sounding like our parents' generation. I'm probably the one out of touch. I'll retire soon, though....so I can play even more tennis!

I just want to be sure my kids know how to write a thank-you note and find a given country on a map....and also navigate mobile apps with confidence.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Netzroller

Well, yes and no.
I do agree with you when it comes to the importance of knowing about new technology etc.

However, I think you should still have some basic knowledge of certain topics. You don't need to know all kinds of fancy stuff, but even nowadays some general education is important. Especially Americans have the bad reputation of not knowing or caring about the rest of the world.
This can be pretty embarassing at times -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI

Two issues:

It is usually the case with superpowers that they really don't care about other countries. The countries who criticize them also do the same for those smaller/less important than them.

Americans are in the spotlight. In other places too, people have only local knowledge, but if they are poor or illiterate, nobody counts them or bothers about what they know.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by slice bh compliment

I appreciate that. I get that it's like that....but not with basic information. The US high school kid is really at an all-time low. Do we celebrate that by being happy he can do other, cooler stuff?

I love my job. I don't have a lot of turnover, but I do enjoy hiring good people. You can bet I'm not hiring the yutz who doesn't know basics.

Kids today.....I know, I'm sounding like our parents' generation. I'm probably the one out of touch. I'll retire soon, though....so I can play even more tennis!

I just want to be sure my kids know how to write a thank-you note and find a given country on a map....and also navigate mobile apps with confidence.

Thank you notes are so yesterday. Nowadays you post on their FB wall that "yesterday was great" and be done with it.

[Dedans Penthouse]

-


75%.....yes, 75%(!) of Oklahoma high school students don't know who the 1st U.S. president was. That's bleeped-up in any era.

And these one-trick wonders prolly wouldn't know what 'color' Geo. Washinton's WHITE horse was either.


Looner Sooner

[crosbydog]

Yesterday I saw a kid call a clearly in ball hit by my daughter "out" during a game of "king of the court". Now cheating during a group lesson is pretty sad.