Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)

[bhupaes]

Hi spacediver, I believe the forehand also exhibits kinetics somewhat similar to the serve as regards shoulder and wrist. The external shoulder rotation is not as easy to see as in the serve, but the internal rotators do seem to get stretched in advance of firing. The wrist/forearm gets loaded and released also, and this is more obviously visible. I believe one can get the most benefit by keeping the wrist - in fact, the whole arm structure - as loose as possible to let the muscles stretch maximally before they fire. Of course, the grip tightens involuntarily at the right time, and one doesn't really need to think about it. I think this is how the pros get the unbelievable control and consistency that simply eludes us amateurs. So much of the energy build up happens via involuntary and passive mechanisms that they can channel all their active faculties into increasing control.

[pushing_wins]

Originally Posted by spacediver

I did have an eye opening experience recently when I took a lesson with someone at my club. For the first time I felt what it was like to have a proper racquet drop and feel a natural wind shield wiper motion. Felt very smooth and effortless.

Perhaps I'll learn how to employ multiple forehands

good for you. are you finally trying out the sw grip? its a totally different sensation at contact.

[spacediver]

bhupaes - great post, makes a lot of sense.

[spacediver]

Originally Posted by pushing_wins

good for you. are you finally trying out the sw grip? its a totally different sensation at contact.

interestingly, one of my first thoughts I had after this experience was that maybe I'd finally understand the sw grip if I was able to recreate that feeling I had during the lesson, but using an sw grip.

[wihamilton]

Hey SpaceDiver,

The point of that video was to dispel the "snap your wrist" myth. However, the wrist definitely releases a bit prior to contact. For example, I've seen some footage where the angle between Rafa's racket and forearm is about 90 degrees right when he sets into his hitting-arm position, but the angle is greater at contact.

But is he actively "snapping his wrist" to bring the racket around? No, I don't think so. Rather, I think it's a natural consequence of the swing path and staying relaxed.

- Will

[spacediver]

Thanks for the clarification Will. I agree that it is useful to emphasize that one should not aim to consciously snap the wrist, but I find a lot of coaches say that the wrist should remain laid back throughout contact, and they seem quite dogmatic about it.

In other words, there are two independent considerations - the volitional control of a joint, and the rotation that actually occurs in the joint, and many coaches conflate these two things, ultimately leading to confusion to the discerning student.

[wihamilton]

Originally Posted by spacediver

Thanks for the clarification Will. I agree that it is useful to emphasize that one should not aim to consciously snap the wrist, but I find a lot of coaches say that the wrist should remain laid back throughout contact, and they seem quite dogmatic about it.

In other words, there are two independent considerations - the volitional control of a joint, and the rotation that actually occurs in the joint, and many coaches conflate these two things, ultimately leading to confusion to the discerning student.

Yep this is an excellent point.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by wihamilton

Hey SpaceDiver,

The point of that video was to dispel the "snap your wrist" myth. However, the wrist definitely releases a bit prior to contact. For example, I've seen some footage where the angle between Rafa's racket and forearm is about 90 degrees right when he sets into his hitting-arm position, but the angle is greater at contact.

But is he actively "snapping his wrist" to bring the racket around? No, I don't think so. Rather, I think it's a natural consequence of the swing path and staying relaxed.

- Will

In the video that the OP put up of Federer it appears to me that Fed pulled the trigger a little early on this particular forehand and is having to reach out a bit, via flexing his wrist, more than normal to hit it.

Thoughts?

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by rkelley

In the video that the OP put up of Federer it appears to me that Fed pulled the trigger a little early on this particular forehand and is having to reach out a bit, via flexing his wrist, more than normal to hit it.

Thoughts?

IMO it's a perfect illustration of the wrist release. That must have been one helluva shot...

[Torres]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

Here's a fantastic analysis of the Nadal forehand from the nytimes, thanks to John Yandell among others:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-Forehand.html

Very interesting.

[FedExpress 333]

Originally Posted by ttbrowne

I can only tell you what a tour player told me about the "whip forehand" like Fed's. Unless you're going to spend about 5,000 hours learning it, forget it.

Hey man, may I ask a few questions?

1. Who told you that?

2. Darn, I have been trying to learn it, but 5,00 hours is .

3. If you can not learn that, what should you learn?

[corners]

Of course tour players snap their wrist on the forehand. The video evidence is extensive.

But of course they don't snap their wrists with their wrist muscles. Instead they slow down their torso rotation, which slows down their arm, and then the racquet pivots at the wrist/forearm and flexes/ulnar deviates & pronates to accelerate through contact.

It's the same thing that happens when a golfer drives (wrists cocked (laid back) at the top of the backswing and then release into contact), a batter swings and a pitcher throws.

It's simply the most efficient way to transfer rotational energy from the center to the periphery.

We all do it on every serve, if we have a serve.

Of course, it's much more difficult to time this release on a live, spinning ball, which is why the tour pro told ttbrowne it will take 5,000 hours to learn. It won't really take that long to get the mechanics down, but hitting consistently might never happen without lots of talent and lots and lots of practice.

There are some nice posts by toly about the physics of these whip forehands. One of the interesting things he says is that with an eastern grip you get wrist flexion when the forearm slows down, while with a semi or western grip you get ulnar deviation when the forearm slows down.

[Kevo]

I don't think it matters really. I think what matters is having a good release. If the racquet is impeded on it's path to contact then you are losing something from your shot, either spin or pace. Having a relaxed wrist and allowing it to flow with the swing will result in a variety of subtle differences in wrist flex and position right before and at contact. I don't think those things matter too much. I think what matters is all the stuff that leads up to contact. The racquet doesn't need to be held at contact. If it's in a good flight trajectory at the moment of impact with the ball, the shot will be good. I think most people impede the shot with too much muscle action near contact.

[toly]

Originally Posted by corners

Of course tour players snap their wrist on the forehand. The video evidence is extensive.

But of course they don't snap their wrists with their wrist muscles. Instead they slow down their torso rotation, which slows down their arm, and then the racquet pivots at the wrist/forearm and flexes/ulnar deviates & pronates to accelerate through contact.

It's the same thing that happens when a golfer drives (wrists cocked (laid back) at the top of the backswing and then release into contact), a batter swings and a pitcher throws.

It's simply the most efficient way to transfer rotational energy from the center to the periphery.

We all do it on every serve, if we have a serve.

Of course, it's much more difficult to time this release on a live, spinning ball, which is why the tour pro told ttbrowne it will take 5,000 hours to learn. It won't really take that long to get the mechanics down, but hitting consistently might never happen without lots of talent and lots and lots of practice.

There are some nice posts by toly about the physics of these whip forehands. One of the interesting things he says is that with an eastern grip you get wrist flexion when the forearm slows down, while with a semi or western grip you get ulnar deviation when the forearm slows down.

One of my students began hitting very powerful FH with intentional and very forceful wrist action after 15 minutes. His strokes were also very consistent. Unfortunately after 1 hour of very successful hitting he broke strings on three of his racquets and told me that he cannot afford using this technique anymore, too expensive.

[wihamilton]

Originally Posted by rkelley

In the video that the OP put up of Federer it appears to me that Fed pulled the trigger a little early on this particular forehand and is having to reach out a bit, via flexing his wrist, more than normal to hit it.

Thoughts?

That's possible, but without seeing where the ball goes it's tough to say. As a general rule, DO NOT read too much into one clip or one picture (not implying that you're doing this, just bringing it up because it's an important point). Great way to reach the wrong conclusion. You need to look at a lot of material before you can definitely make a particular call... and even then sometimes it's dicey.

- Will

[5263]

Originally Posted by wihamilton

As a general rule, DO NOT read too much into one clip or one picture (not implying that you're doing this, just bringing it up because it's an important point). Great way to reach the wrong conclusion. You need to look at a lot of material before you can definitely make a particular call... and even then sometimes it's dicey.

- Will

Very good point when looking for answers.

On the other hand, when you are confident of the point you are making already, it makes a lot of sense to use one or two vids which illustrate it nicely.

[pushing_wins]

spacediver, are u coming up to watch the itf this week?

[Mahboob Khan]

Originally Posted by spacediver

In the FYB video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ6RIkQ9IU there are a few things that are stressed:

1) The wrist should remain laid back before and during contact. In other words, there should be no flexion of the wrist until well after contact, and the wrist should remain extended before and through contact.

2) Advanced players can start to introduce pronation / wrist deviation to aid in generating topspin

3) Sometimes, the pronation/deviation can give the illusion of wrist flexion when watching full speed video.

Now my question is whether 1) holds true in all circumstances. I'm not arguing that one should actively flex the wrist, but aren't there circumstances where the wrist will naturally flex to a more or less neutral position right at contact?

Look at this super slow motion footage of a federer forehand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji914RSFrew

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it seems clear that there is a significant component of wrist flexion that occurs right before contact. It appears that the previous link in the kinetic chain (the forearm) slows down and the momentum gets channeled through the wrist joint creating a nice whip effect.

I suspect that this is more the case when one is hitting a flat forehand, with the racquet face perpendicular to ground during the forward swing (and square to target).

With all modern forehands the hitting wrist-forearm is laid back creating a double bend; as the racket moves forward into the contact zone the wrist fires forward in a controlled way to aid in generating the racket head speed; (yes, the racket head which was dragging behind, now catches up with the wrist at point of contact). I call this, "an educated use of the wrist". With the "uneducated use of the wrist", uncontrolled wrist snap, the player will probably mistime the ball, shank the ball, etc.

Observe the wheel of your car: the axcel part, and the top of the tire part. The axcel seems to be moving/rotating slow, the top of the tire moving quite fast (tire moving faster than the axcel but both reach their destination at the same time because the axcel distance is less, the tire's distance is more). For tennis players, the wrist-forearm is the axcel, and the tip .. frame of the racket .. is the tire. The wrist use accelerates itself (the axcel) and the axcel then accelerates the tire (frame of the racket).

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Mahboob Khan

With all modern forehands the hitting wrist-forearm is laid back creating a double bend; as the racket moves forward into the contact zone the wrist fires forward in a controlled way to aid in generating the racket head speed; (yes, the racket head which was dragging behind, now catches up with the wrist at point of contact). I call this, "an educated use of the wrist". With the "uneducated use of the wrist", uncontrolled wrist snap, the player will probably mistime the ball, shank the ball, etc.

Observe the wheel of your car: the axcel part, and the top of the tire part. The axcel seems to be moving/rotating slow, the top of the tire moving quite fast (tire moving faster than the axcel but both reach their destination at the same time because the axcel distance is less, the tire's distance is more). For tennis players, the wrist-forearm is the axcel, and the tip .. frame of the racket .. is the tire. The wrist use accelerates itself (the axcel) and the axcel then accelerates the tire (frame of the racket).

I don't think this is a correct analogy. With a tire and axel there is no independent movement. The tire spins faster because of the distance from the point of rotation is greater than the axel's radius from the rotation point. The difference between rate of the spin of the outer edge of tire and the axel remains constant even though the tire edge is rotating faster. The tire doesn't 'catch up' to the axel. The differences between spinning rates stays the same. A passive wrist will 'snap' forward because the rate of acceleration of the arm slows decreases.

I think most people dont utilitize a 100% passive wrist. They use slight control and 'education' as it was put to control the wrist during this snap and this probably contributes to the moving forward also.

[corners]

Originally Posted by toly

One of mine student began hitting very powerful FH with intentional and very forceful wrist action after 15 minutes. His strokes were also very consistent. Unfortunately after 1 hour of very successful hitting he broke strings on three of his racquets and told me that he cannot afford using this technique anymore, too expensive.

Tell him to switch to kevlar mains with a soft copoly cross at lower tension. He won't be breaking many strings with that extremely spin-friendly combo.

But a pretty nice problem to have, as far as forehands go. Do you think, toly, that learning a whip, or slingshot (Fed or Nadal style) and becoming consistent with it is less difficult than people think?