Debate/Discuss, Who Are The Best Stringers in the World?

[drakulie]

Grand Slam Stringers VS Home Stringers VS Pro Shop Stringers

There has been a lot of debate over the years on the forum in relation to who are the best stringers in the world, and secondly, are “Grand Slam Stringers” really better stringers than the “home stringer”.
There are several types of stringers, all of which serve a specific function, so keep in mind each should be looked at individually. Please understand the following is going to have some generalizations, so bear with me.

Home Stringers:
“Home stringers”, for the most part are those that string out of their homes. They begin stringing either because of interest taken in the process, to save money, or because they enjoy trying out all sorts of strings and set-ups amongst other reasons. Because stringing cost begin to run high, they soon figure out how much time and money they could save stringing for themselves. Many times, this stringer also strings for family, and friends.

Most home stringers stay at this level, don’t string to make an extra buck or impress anyone. They rarely venture out to properly learn how to string (what others more qualified may deem appropriate vs. inappropriate), much less learn how to string more than a few racquets. For many home stringers (not all) their technique is questionable, which would make more “accomplished” stringers frown on their work. As for their “level” of stringing, most don’t become certified (which I’ll get into later), or get into learning all types of patterns, knots, etc. They don’t use the most expensive or state of the art machines. They keep it simple, and are happy to string their own frames, regardless of what others may or may not think of their quality of work.

Keep in mind, the aforementioned does not apply to all home stringers, as many are what I would define as some of the best, most knowledgeable stringers in the world.

Client Stringer:
What I would define as a “client stringer”, would be a “home stringer” whom has personal clients they string for to make some extra cash or provide a service not available in their area. Many towns or cities have few places where one could drop off racquets such as a pro shop or sporting goods chain store that provide this service. Many times, these services are available but too far or the stringing service is too costly and poor quality.
As one could see, the “client stringer” evolves at times out of necessity, or as a needed service to the tennis population in the area.

“Client stringers” are typically far more accomplished stringers and offer a better overall service than the “home stringer”. They carry, and are more knowledgeable about many different types of strings, patterns, have better quality machines/tools, etc. Their technique may be better as well, as for the most part they may have studied what would be deemed appropriate stringing techniques. Many times, these stringers go on to become certified in order to justify their rate, or to distinguish themselves from others in the area.

This stringer will not only be more knowledgeable about different racquets, how to string them correctly, and how differing strings would play in these, but also what string would be best for a string-breaker vs. a non-breaker, a flat hitter vs. a spinner, etc. etc, etc. They are also more familiar with one piece, two piece, ATW patterns, etc.

Lastly, this stringer ventures out at times to provide stringing service to smaller tournaments in the area, or even for colleges.

As with Home Stringers, many of the best stringers in the world could be found at this level. On the other hand, many are worse (even with a certification and extra experience/knowledge) as the average home stringer.

Chain Store Stringer:
Many stringers in this area string solely as part of their many other job duties. They are found in places like Dicks Sporting Goods, Sports Authority, Golf Smith, etc. These stringers are typically certified as a job requirement and not as a personal decision to better their stringing abilities, and had no prior experience stringing before beginning to work at the store. They typically have very little knowledge about strings, racquets, tensions, etc.

Pro Shop Stringer:
Pro Shop Stringers typically work part or full time at a tennis specialty store, and evolved from the “home” and/or “client” stringer. Many, if they haven’t already done so and even though they may be more than qualified to string, are still required to become certified.

Pro Shop Stringers typically have a vast amount of knowledge about strings, racquets, stringing machines, patterns, techniques, etc. They are much more tuned to stringing than the aforementioned stringers and are required and able to string all sorts of racquets with different strings, and complete racquets quicker because of the work load and turn-around time required. They have developed techniques the other stringers haven’t in order to make them more consistent and quicker from string job to string job even though some of these techniques are debatable as being better or worse for a string job.

Being they have access to demo all sorts of racquets and string, they have much more knowledge not only about current equipment on the market, but about up-coming equipment not yet introduced to the market.

Bigger tournaments in the areas typically may seek out these stringers. One simple explanation is tournament directors have working relationships with the shop, so are familiar with the stringers. Being that they already have the equipment needed and are accustomed to stringing a high volume of racquets in a short period, Pro Shop Stringers make a logical sense to use.

Depending on the size of the shop, and tennis area served, Pro Shop Stringers could turn around upwards of ten thousand racquets a year, which could also include internet sales. For one example, in the last twelve months, I strung over 3000 racquets at the shop I work at, and the other stringer did much more than that. This does not include all the tournaments I did, my personal clients, and stringing at the LTC, which houses the Solomon Academy, which is nothing when compared to a friend of mine who works at a competing store that strings much more.

For these reasons, and many more, Pro Shop Stringers are much more seasoned in the craft and end up stringing at pro events. That said, like everything else, there is no absolutes and some of the worst stringers could be found at Pro Shops.

<<<continued below>>>

[drakulie]

<<<continued from above>>>

Pro (Tournament/Grand Slam) Stringer:
“Pro Stringers” (Grand Slam/ATP) are possibly the most misunderstood group of stringers in the world by the general “stringing” and “tennis playing public”.

To begin with, they did not go to a special university where they Mastered in Stringing. There is really no secret to how they got to where they are. They have the exact same USRSA Certification as someone who began stringing racquets two months before they got their certification. For the most part, they started as “Home Stringers” and progressed thru the aforementioned ladder. With each “step”, they gained more experience, and became better than most at their craft thru repetition not available as you go down the ladder. Many have full time jobs outside of tennis, and once a tournament is over, go back to their regular jobs. Others go back to their regular jobs and string on the side as “Home/Client Stringers”. Still others go back to work full time as a “Pro Shop Stringer”, etc, etc.

Even though they are providing a service for multi-millionaires and the very best players in the sport, they are not by any stretch of the imagination getting wealthy stringing at professional events. One needs to keep in mind, in the case of someone who strings at Grand Slam Events, there are only 4 of these tournaments a year, which if you are doing the math, means about 50 working days a year. This is hardly enough to sustain one monetarily thru a year considering “Grand Slam/ Pro Stringers” don’t make a whole lot of money. Fact is most of these stringers get paid per racquet, which could be as little as $8.00-$10.00 per frame depending on the venue. Yes, you read that correctly. They are typically making less than a “client stinger” charges for the price of a string job, which is typically in the neighborhood of $10-$15 per re-string. In fact, one is better off being a client stringer, as you get to provide the stringing service and string at the cost you set, which means the Client Stringer gets paid more per frame than the guy/gal stringing at a Slam.

To add, one would have to string at all 4 slams do get those 50 days, which is hardly the case. Each event (ATP or Grand Slam) has its own team of stringers that are contracted to provide the stringing service.
In my opinion, what really separates the Grand Slam Stringer from the rest of the field are as follows:

PRESSURE. Plain and simple, the ability to work under very stressful and physically exhausting conditions with little rest for several days in a row. One must have the mental and physical ability to stand in one spot for upwards of 14+ hours a day, and string racquet after racquet perfectly and consistently for the very best players in the world. Up to and including 40+ racquets in that given day, which is more than a home/client stringer may string in one month. Now imagine being a client/home stringer and you botch a string job. No big deal. Re-string it for free, and your client is happy and on their way only to come back another day. One doesn’t get “second chances” at a pro event. Imagine “botching” one of Federer’s racquets and it costs him the game,,,,,,set,,,,, match,,,,,,,, Wimbledon. Unlike every other stringer in the ladder, the Pro Stringer is the only one where his “client” is making a living from the sport and one point may make the difference between going home or going to the next round, which could mean tens of thousands of dollars to the player. THAT is Pressure.

Pro Stringers, thru the aforementioned evolution (home, client, pro shop, etc) of stringing, have absolutely “chiseled away at the sculpture of stringing” and perfected the craft. They have eliminated wasted movements that are time consuming. They have learned tricks to make the process of stringing crosses more natural, consistent, and quicker. They are continuously chiseling away at these wasted movements in order to ease the stringing process and make it easier and more efficient. Heck, Wilson even engineered the Baiardo Stringing machine to ease the process and have developed a training program so that all the stringers on their team are on the same page. Always evolving. They have learned to become “marathon runners” or better yet, “marathon stringers” to pace themselves throughout an event; Never too slow, or too quick. ALL have that extra gear to blast thru a full poly 18x20 racquet in 12 minutes or less in order to get it out to the courts in the middle of a match, and all while not sacrificing the quality of the final product that could have been done in 20 minutes. Yes, including stencil, labeling, and putting it in a plastic bag. Always Perfection. They have the ability and more importantly willingness to learn from other stringers, and adapt what they have learned to use in their own stringing methods, or change those methods when necessary, which is a great example of the Grand Slam Stringers Symposium.

Are Grand Slam or Pro Tournament Stringers the best in the world? As a whole, YES. These stringers as a whole are the best of all the groups. They’ve earned it. They could all easily be home, client, chain store, or pro shop stringers. Many are. However, most home, client, chain-store, or pro shop stringers could not cut it at a pro event.

On the other hand, does this mean that every single stringer who strings at pro events is better than every Home, Client, Pro Shop Stringer? No. Many home, client, and pro shop stringers could provide the same quality of stringing one racquet as a Grand Slam Stringer.

USRSA Certification:
One more thing I’d like to point out. Like everything else, being certified vs not being certified does not equate to being good/better or bad/worse. In fact, many of the very best stringers in the world are not USRSA certified, and many techniques needed to be completed to become certified are non-existent not only with the Home Stringer but with the Grand Slam Stringer. The certification is simply a general standard adapted as “good practice” of stringing a racquet “correctly”. Remember, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Lets me know your thoughts, and let’s try to keep it civil. Thanks for reading.

[frunk]

All i got from this is 'We grand slam stringers are so misunderstood and we're under so much pressure.'

[fortun8son]

Very well stated, drakulie.
I guess this is an attempt to rerail and civilize the mess that happened on the Stringway Tool thread. That got way out of hand. I was saddened to see world class stringers get drawn into a pi$$ing match like that. But, we are human after all, and someone will always find the right button to push.
I'm a bit surprised that diredesire didn't step in.
Anyway:
I started out as a Chain Store Stringer and have become, in the last year and a half, a Client Stringer.
I could be MRT/Certified, but the cost vs benefits is not worth it to me at this point.
I truly admire those at the GSS level. That's a tough gig.
I am a musician as well and know that there is a BIG difference between being able to rip an amazing lick, and doing it in the recording studio under time and money pressure, especially when the engineer says " That was great! Can you do it again? We didn't get that one!"
I couldn't string at that level and wouldn't even try.
Then again, I've been playing music for 40 years and only stringing racquets for 5!
And, you know what? Maybe the best in the world have a right to be a bit arrogant!
When you can consistently sautee scallops or make a Beef Wellington better than Chef Ramsay, you can argue without him tearing you a new one!
Fortunately, Master Stringers are much nicer than that. (Usually)
michael

[PimpMyGame]

I'm lucky enough to personally know Liam who is accredited with creating the UKRSA ATW pattern, and has strung for many top players and at Wimbledon. I know I will never meet a better stringer, and feel proud that he taught me how to string.

I myself am a "client stringer" and am happy with the service I provide to my customers even though I do not have the skill or equipment to give them what Liam could.

In short I know first hand that the stringers at the top of their game work incredibly hard and have a wealth of knowledge. I'm not capable of working to that level so won't give the day job up just yet.

[rjw]

Drakulie

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

I definitely see stringing as an artform. Some have good hand skills and others do not and never will, although they can get better at stringing.

I can only hope that my slow rookie technique results in a close to world class stringjob and will continue to work at becoming more efficient, although I doubt that I would ever be able to string at a tour level...nor would I really want to.

Over time, I can only hope to be considered a good stringer, perhaps on par with some of the best with respect to quality.

I can see that in some cases, arrogance can go hand in hand with a stringer's skills or resume....it's all part of the gig.

It is really up to the end user/customer to determine where to draw the line as far as who they care to deal with.

However, I think that like any other craft, those who can string under pressure and still produce a quality stringjob in a timely fashion deserve the respect of the stringing community. (there are most likely exceptions in some people's eyes), but that's life.

Good writeup and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Pro_Tour_630]

It seems I opened up a can of worms without knowing when I mistakenly referred to GSS as arrogant. I was referring to the pro shop stringers in my area.

Maybe we should have a reality TV show only with stringing, common if you do it would be my idea and i demand royalties. picture the top iron chopped chefs cooking under pressure only with stringing. Or a reality show like anthony bourdan and andrew Zimmerman only with stringing.

Anyway, it is like asking who are the best cooks in the world and usually it is someone in your home because they know what you like and you are used to it.

With that said, the person who strings their own frames are the best stringers in the world IMO.

I worked for a pro shop ( know what really goes down ) and now only do certain clients. I know what I like, what my sons like, the select high performance kids, and the fickle advanced geysers in the area like.

[Pro_Tour_630]

Originally Posted by fortun8son

And, you know what? Maybe the best in the world have a right to be a bit arrogant!

because they travel the world ( perks even though they make less per frame) and meet famous players, they have a right to be a bit arrogant.

OK OK, they better be 5.0 or better, because if they are 4.5 or lower then they do not deserve to be a bit arrogant.

[coachrick]

Originally Posted by Pro_Tour_630

because they travel the world ( perks even though they make less per frame) and meet famous players, they have a right to be a bit arrogant.

OK OK, they better be 5.0 or better, because if they are 4.5 or lower then they do not deserve to be a bit arrogant.

If you are referencing NTRP level, I'll have to say at least HALF of the really good stringers I've known over the years were under 4.5 on their best day. Sure, plenty of the teaching pro types and tournament players were good stringers; but many others spent countless more hours stringing than they ever had a chance to play. As such, they would have been rated 5.0+ on the stringing machine, even if they were 'only' pretty good on the court.

I've often likened racket techs to bicycle mechanics. Some just toil away in their own shop or work for someone else, but have a loyal clientele that would travel many miles to patronize 'their' guy. Then, you would have the 'team' wrenches, those who travel and keep their teams rolling along efficiently and quietly. Really no reason to think they should be able to ride in the team paceline just because they can maintain a multi-thousand dollar bike.

Of course, for every tour stringer or tour mechanic, there are thousands of 'normal' folk who are dedicated to their craft and turn out a quality 'product' day in and day out.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by fortun8son

Very well stated, drakulie.
I guess this is an attempt to rerail and civilize the mess that happened on the Stringway Tool thread.

Not necessarily. Just thought it would be a good topic of discussion since it has been debated on the forums for a long time, including the thread you mention.

Agree with the examples you cite in your post, and glad to hear you are doing a good job representing chainstores. They really get the short end of the stick on these forums, but like everything else, there are good and bad stringers at every level.

Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by PimpMyGame

I'm lucky enough to personally know Liam who is accredited with creating the UKRSA ATW pattern, and has strung for many top players and at Wimbledon. I know I will never meet a better stringer, and feel proud that he taught me how to string.

I myself am a "client stringer" and am happy with the service I provide to my customers even though I do not have the skill or equipment to give them what Liam could.

In short I know first hand that the stringers at the top of their game work incredibly hard and have a wealth of knowledge. I'm not capable of working to that level so won't give the day job up just yet.

Although I have never met Liam, I have exchanged several emails with him, and he definitely seems like a genuinely nice guy. Everyone that talks about him always has postivie things to say, and talk highly about his stringing knowledge.

Originally Posted by rjw

Drakulie

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Welcome. Remember to keep on chugging. As long as you continue to want to improve and are open to listening and learning you'll be fine nd improve immensely.

Originally Posted by Pro_Tour_630

It seems I opened up a can of worms without knowing when I mistakenly referred to GSS as arrogant.

Not really. Like I said in the opening of my post, this has been an on-going topic for quite some time on the boards.

Originally Posted by Pro_Tour_630

I worked for a pro shop ( know what really goes down )

care to share what "went down" in the pro shop YOU worked at, cause I could absolutely guarantee you, if something innappropriate was "going down" at your pro shop, it does not mean it is happening at every pro shop?

[Pro_Tour_630]

Originally Posted by drakulie

care to share what "went down" in the pro shop YOU worked at, cause I could absolutely guarantee you, if something innappropriate was "going down" at your pro shop, it does not mean it is happening at every pro shop?

no I do not care to share, which is why I left, like i said drakulie, not everyone is as honest as you are. But just to give you a hint imagine what goes on behind the scenes at kitchens of these famous restaurants.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Pro_Tour_630

no I do not care to share, which is why I left, like i said drakulie, not everyone is as honest as you are. But just to give you a hint imagine what goes on behind the scenes at kitchens of these famous restaurants.

OK, fair enough. I suppose I'll give it a shot since I started this thread, and we are tyring to get things in the open:

Here are some things stringers do, which they know better not to do:

• leave a racquet half strung overnight.
• charge the client for a certain string, and then put in a cheaper string.
• double pull.
• triple pull, etc
• crack the racquet due to poor work, and tell client the racquet was already cracked.
• mount racquet incorrectly deforming it, and tell client racquet was already warped.
• burn the string due to poor quality of work.
• purposely burn the string in order to achieve premature breakage and gain more business.
• purposely mislead clients.
• patch jobs.
• etc

However, like I said, this doesn't happen everywhere, and just because it happened at your pro shop, does not equate to it happening or being tolerated elsewhere.

[Pro_Tour_630]

Originally Posted by drakulie

OK, fair enough. I suppose I'll give it a shot since I started this thread, and we are tyring to get things in the open:

Here are some things stringers do, which they know better not to do:

• leave a racquet half strung overnight.
• charge the client for a certain string, and then put in a cheaper string.
• double pull.
• triple pull, etc
• crack the racquet due to poor work, and tell client the racquet was already cracked.
• mount racquet incorrectly deforming it, and tell client racquet was already warped.
• burn the string due to poor quality of work.
• purposely burn the string in order to achieve premature breakage and gain more business.
• purposely mislead clients.
• patch jobs.
• etc

However, like I said, this doesn't happen everywhere, and just because it happened at your pro shop, does not equate to it happening or being tolerated elsewhere.

fair enough you are right it does not happen at every pro shop,

[rjw]

Not being happy with how a shop handles people's equipment is ONE reason why some choose to string for themselves.

If you are stringing in an area where local shops are known to do a bad job, then it should be good for your business, if you are so much better.

Personally, like many, I don't think that you would be happy with anyone else, in that you are self procaimed to be sensitive to the slightest imperfections.

So, string for yourself, bash your local shop, but I can't see how lumping ALL pro shops into the 'bad' category can be justified.

[drakulie]

^^agreed.

Yes, as I stated there are bad stringers at every level, but lumping everyone into one category is definitely not right either.

[Pro_Tour_630]

Originally Posted by rjw

Not being happy with how a shop handles people's equipment is ONE reason why some choose to string for themselves.

If you are stringing in an area where local shops are known to do a bad job, then it should be good for your business, if you are so much better.

Personally, like many, I don't think that you would be happy with anyone else, in that you are self procaimed to be sensitive to the slightest imperfections.

So, string for yourself, bash your local shop, but I can't see how lumping ALL pro shops into the 'bad' category can be justified.

it is not just one shop but several in the area

that is the problem not too many know, I am not in business to make money, i string for a select few clients, I think I have said that already.

that is not true that I am not satisfied, I am satisfied with John cauthen stringing methods and a stringer who is over 70 years old with over 50 years of experience, too bad he does not string anymore. He taught me his tricks and still not as good as he is. It is a dying art, he taught his son but we all know that seldom the son is like the father in everything.

[rjw]

It's pretty much the same with everything.

There are perfectionists and butchers in every field. You just have to weed them out and move on from there.

What part of the world are you in?

[coolblue123]

Originally Posted by drakulie

OK, fair enough. I suppose I'll give it a shot since I started this thread, and we are tyring to get things in the open:

Here are some things stringers do, which they know better not to do:

• leave a racquet half strung overnight.
• charge the client for a certain string, and then put in a cheaper string.
• double pull.
• triple pull, etc
• crack the racquet due to poor work, and tell client the racquet was already cracked.
• mount racquet incorrectly deforming it, and tell client racquet was already warped.
• burn the string due to poor quality of work.
• purposely burn the string in order to achieve premature breakage and gain more business.
• purposely mislead clients.
• patch jobs.
• etc

However, like I said, this doesn't happen everywhere, and just because it happened at your pro shop, does not equate to it happening or being tolerated elsewhere.

+1 on this. part of the reason why I got a stringing machine myself. Always wondered why my usual setup always broke so fast for the past 3 stringing sessions? Found out that the stringer had used a nail filer to sand between some of the intersections of the mains and crosses. Very well hidden too. I stopped going to him and got my own stringer.

But stringing, in many ways, reminded me of car work. Since there are no evident ways to find out if your stick has been double pulled, left on stringer half strung so that the 5 yr at the big chain store uses your racquet handle as a jungle gym (yes, I've seen it happen b4). it's based on trust.

Question though. Has there ever been thought about rating stringers? Go though a stringer test to determine what rating is the person? This can be used to justify costs of stringing if the stringer is highly rated.

[origmarm]

Originally Posted by drakulie

OK, fair enough. I suppose I'll give it a shot since I started this thread, and we are tyring to get things in the open:

Here are some things stringers do, which they know better not to do:

• leave a racquet half strung overnight.
• charge the client for a certain string, and then put in a cheaper string.
• double pull.
• triple pull, etc
• crack the racquet due to poor work, and tell client the racquet was already cracked.
• mount racquet incorrectly deforming it, and tell client racquet was already warped.
• burn the string due to poor quality of work.
• purposely burn the string in order to achieve premature breakage and gain more business.
• purposely mislead clients.
• patch jobs.
• etc

However, like I said, this doesn't happen everywhere, and just because it happened at your pro shop, does not equate to it happening or being tolerated elsewhere.

Interesting list. Some of them seem accidental or just bad technique/knowledge whereas some of them seem deliberately dishonest. I guess I've been very fortunate in that I haven't come across any of this at the couple of stores I worked at when younger. It's hard to believe what some people will stoop to.

Originally Posted by coolblue123

Always wondered why my usual setup always broke so fast for the past 3 stringing sessions? Found out that the stringer had used a nail filer to sand between some of the intersections of the mains and crosses. Very well hidden too.

That's just unbelievable! Some people have no pride at all apparently.

Re the point of this thread, the best stringer I ever came across was an old chap I met in the US about 15yrs ago. I forget his last name but his first was Jose. Anyhow the point is that he had a one clamp bab 3-star (which I learnt to string on) in his garage and was probably the most perfectionist of stringers, looking back, that you can imagine. He always said he couldn't work at a tournament because of that. He had a pretty low opinion of "speed stringers" though. "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing 100% right!" . He had an MRT (I think, perhaps another body of some kind) cert proudly displayed next to his tools but I doubt anyone who went in there ever knew what it was...

EDIT: Sort of like your Grandad, but with a stringing machine .

Just wanted to add that he knew the pattern, string lengths etc...for every racquet we ever strung together without looking it up or so I recall. That stringing machine ended up being my first, he sold it to a local pro shop who was just starting out. I gave them free stringing to use it for myself at the time.

[Rabbit]

I guess I'm a hybrid stringer.

First, let me say that I truly enjoy stringing racquets. It's just fun to me.

Now, on to the hybrid... I string for a bunch of folks around here which I guess makes me a client stringer but, I get a call once or twice a year to help out at professional tournaments too. Now these tournaments are way lower level than anything Drakulie strings at, but one of the tourneys is a WTA event that is just under the main tour.

From my standpoint, what I've seen in pro shops around town is poor technique at best and just not caring at worst. Even at the pro shop that my buddy owns, they routinely string bottom up because it's easier than fooling with a 2-piece or ATW. I just can't bring myself to do that.

That said, I did relate the story of one of the girls who played in the WTA event. I think it may be worth repeating.

I got her racquets for the entire tournament for consistency's sake. She played with the APD, like Rafa, and strung it with RPM in the mains and Excel in the crosses @ 65. She has a package with Babolat. Daily, she went through at least two frames a day.

Her frames had been strung so much, that at the 4 and 7 o'clock positions on them, there was a perfect wear pattern where there was no paint. It coincided with the tie offs at the bottom. They had been strung so many times by stringers who used their tensioner to tighten the knot (which isn't every stringer) that the paint had worn off due to the friction of the string. These marks were at both corners on both sides of the frame indicating that they had been strung A LOT.

Her frames were still intact and I assume played with integrity as she made the finals of the tournament. I don't know if she won or not.

Let me also add my wholehearted agreement with Drakulie. After a full day at work, stringing 15 racquets to turn around for the next day is just tough. The professional stringers at tournaments are on their feet stringing frames 12 hours or more. It has got to be tough, tougher than anyone knows until you've done it.