Evert against prime Graf, prime Seles, or even prime Henin on clay

[NadalAgassi]

Chris Evert is regarded as the greatest female clay courter in history. That seems appropriate given her record. However if in her prime she faced a prime Graf, prime Seles, or even perhaps a prime Henin on clay how would she have fared. Would any of those possibly even had the edge over her.

[Tennishacker]

It's very difficult to compare players of different era's.
Playing style, equipment, training methods and competition all factor into how one player dominates their era.

But I think the "ice queen" would be the best on clay, whatever generation she plays against.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Chris Evert is regarded as the greatest female clay courter in history. That seems appropriate given her record. However if in her prime she faced a prime Graf, prime Seles, or even perhaps a prime Henin on clay how would she have fared. Would any of those possibly even had the edge over her.

Well, an older Evert was competitive vs Steffi so I think she would have held her own at the very least

[dannykl]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Chris Evert is regarded as the greatest female clay courter in history. That seems appropriate given her record. However if in her prime she faced a prime Graf, prime Seles, or even perhaps a prime Henin on clay how would she have fared. Would any of those possibly even had the edge over her.

If all four played at the same generation, I think Evert would be quite even against the other 3. She wouldn't dominate the other 3 on clay, nor would the other 3 dominate her.

However I think Henin might win more against Seles on clay. Seles' one dimensional game would be vulnerable to Henin. Henin versus Graf would be a tight match. No one will have clear advantage on clay.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by pmerk34

Well, an older Evert was competitive vs Steffi so I think she would have held her own at the very least

Not that competitive. She won only 1 set in their last 7 matches (excluding the walkover). That is in sharp contrast to say Navratilova who even in old age often won sets, and occasionaly a match from prime Steffi. I dont think Graf was a good matchup for Evert in general, whereas she was a pretty good matchup for Martina. 16 year old Steffi had her first ever win over Evert before ever winning a pro tournament (or exactly at the time of winning her first as that was also her first title) and it was on clay, then never lost another match again and only 1 set. I believe that was their last meeting ever on clay too.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by dannykl

However I think Henin might win more against Seles on clay. Seles' one dimensional game would be vulnerable to Henin. Henin versus Graf would be a tight match. No one will have clear advantage on clay.

The funny thing is Seles in the twilight of her career just before retiring, and WAY below her prime level still went 4-3 vs Henin. They never played on clay. I also think Seles was a bad matchup for Henin.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Not that competitive. She won only 1 set in their last 7 matches (excluding the walkover). That is in sharp contrast to say Navratilova who even in old age often won sets, and occasionaly a match from prime Steffi. I dont think Graf was a good matchup for Evert in general, whereas she was a pretty good matchup for Martina. 16 year old Steffi had her first ever win over Evert before ever winning a pro tournament (or exactly at the time of winning her first as that was also her first title) and it was on clay, then never lost another match again and only 1 set. I believe that was their last meeting ever on clay too.

Yeah true I guess I only remember the Boca Raton match in 89 and the 2nd set at the AO in 88.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

The funny thing is Seles in the twilight of her career just before retiring, and WAY below her prime level still went 4-3 vs Henin. They never played on clay. I also think Seles was a bad matchup for Henin.

Seles was bad match up for everyone for a few years

[BTURNER]

I think Evert would win the slight majority of matches vs Graf and the better percentage of matches vs Seles because Seles is more limited, and easier to figure out. Once Evert figures out how to play an opponent and gains any confidence, its pretty much all over for baseliners on clay. She'd loose a lot of first sets though to both of them.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by pmerk34

Seles was bad match up for everyone for a few years

Yeah but by the late 90s she had become an easy matchup for nearly all the top players. Yet even as a further diminished force by the early 2000s she was still a tough matchup for rising stars Henin and Clijsters, which makes me think those are two people who definitely wouldnt have done well against her in her prime when they couldnt even do well against that version of her.

[boredone3456]

Evert would be a horrible matchup for Seles. Evert was extremely patient and tactical in her approach to the court. She set up winners and could move her opponents around very easily when she set her mind to it. She could rip winners from seemingly impossible angles and had amazing point construction. Seles would be a player Evert would exploit big time. Evert would easily push Seles around on clay and make her run, or bait her to net to pass her easily as Seles was very awkward at net. Seles couldn't even handle Hingis, no way would she handle Evert, Hingis was very Evert-like in her approach to tennis. She would stand a chance to win the occasional set...but I doubt she could win matches.

Henin would be slightly more troublesome. Henin was a much better mover and had a much better all court game then Seles did. Henin could play strong at the net, move the baseline, construc points and she moved very well on clay. Henin also never had to play an opponent like Evert on Dirt, she had no one close in her league...Evert is a whole different animal to Kim or Serena on dirt. Evert's slices and lobs would run Henin around a lot, and Henin wouldn't have the option of simply waiting Evert out.

Graf would be the biggest problem and their matches, both at their best, would be epic. Evert after 86 really went down in her form. She had blips of good play but after so many years it was obvious she was out of gas. By 88 at the Aussie it was because Graf got sloppy in the 2nd that Evert clawed back the way she did. Evert in her strongest years would take it more to Steffi then she did when they played. Grafs forehand and movement Vs Everts slices, lobs, passing shots...it would be a battle. If Evert baited her to net, Graf could volley but Evert would be ready for her I am sure.

Overall

Seles would be lucky to get more then 1 match in 10, and would lose, frequently, in straight sets.

Henin would maybe do a little better, maybe not lose in straights so much, but overall Evert would get 7 or 8 out of 10.

Graf and Evert...who knows, I say even split in a true battle. They are the top 2 clay players on the ladies side...it would be epic.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Not that competitive. She won only 1 set in their last 7 matches (excluding the walkover). ...

1 set in their last EIGHT matches (excluding the WO):

1986 HILTON HEAD Graf 64 75
1987 MIAMI Graf 61 62
1987 FED CUP Graf 62 61
1987 LOS ANGELES Graf 63 64
1988 AUSTRALIAN OPEN Graf 61 76
1988 MIAMI Graf 64 64
1988 US OPEN Graf W/O
1989 BOCA RATON Graf 46 62 63
1989 WIMBLEDON Graf 62 61

That is 16-1 sets.
8 sets with Evert winning only 1 or 2 games.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by pmerk34

Seles was bad match up for everyone for a few years

Not for a slumping Graf in 1991/93.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

I think Evert would win the slight majority of matches vs Graf ...

In which year do you think Evert played at her best ever?

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

1 set in their last EIGHT matches (excluding the WO):

1986 HILTON HEAD Graf 64 75
1987 MIAMI Graf 61 62
1987 FED CUP Graf 62 61
1987 LOS ANGELES Graf 63 64
1988 AUSTRALIAN OPEN Graf 61 76
1988 MIAMI Graf 64 64
1988 US OPEN Graf W/O
1989 BOCA RATON Graf 46 62 63
1989 WIMBLEDON Graf 62 61

That is 16-1 sets.
8 sets with Evert winning only 1 or 2 games.

And here is the first half
1985 Lipton/Delray Beach, FL SF W 6-4, 6-2
1985 Hilton Head, SC SF W 6-2, 6-1
1985 Berlin F W 6-4, 7-5
1985 French Open 4R W 6-2, 6-3
1986 Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-3, 6-1
1986 Lipton/Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-4, 6-2

That is the problem with this rivalry. Its like to entirely different rivalries. One where Graf was immature, another when Evert was burning out and inconsistent. Its interesting to note that while Graf and Sabatini were contemporaries, Sabatini was more competitive vs Evert in these early years. Once Chris figured out how to play against Graf's game in 1988, she was too old to implement throughout a very physical match.

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

And here is the first half
1985 Lipton/Delray Beach, FL SF W 6-4, 6-2
1985 Hilton Head, SC SF W 6-2, 6-1
1985 Berlin F W 6-4, 7-5
1985 French Open 4R W 6-2, 6-3
1986 Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-3, 6-1
1986 Lipton/Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-4, 6-2

That is the problem with this rivalry. Its like to entirely different rivalries. One where Graf was immature, another when Evert was burning out and inconsistent. Its interesting to note that while Graf and Sabatini were contemporaries, Sabatini was more competitive vs Evert in these early years. Once Chris figured out how to play against Graf's game in 1988, she was too old to implement throughout a very physical match.

So a 30-year-old Evert dominated a 15-year-old Steffi and a 17-year-old Steffi dominated a 32-year-old Evert.

What do you think was the main reason for that?
Evert becoming two years older or Steffi becoming two years older?
I think these questions answer themselves ...

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

And here is the first half
1985 Lipton/Delray Beach, FL SF W 6-4, 6-2
1985 Hilton Head, SC SF W 6-2, 6-1
1985 Berlin F W 6-4, 7-5
1985 French Open 4R W 6-2, 6-3
1986 Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-3, 6-1
1986 Lipton/Key Biscayne, FL F W 6-4, 6-2

That is the problem with this rivalry. Its like to entirely different rivalries. One where Graf was immature, another when Evert was burning out and inconsistent. Its interesting to note that while Graf and Sabatini were contemporaries, Sabatini was more competitive vs Evert in these early years. Once Chris figured out how to play against Graf's game in 1988, she was too old to implement throughout a very physical match.

Yeah, I tend to agree w/your assessment. Chris kind of figured out how to play Steffi a little late...she played a tough match against her in FL and even that AO final, was shockingly good in the 2nd set. But, Steffi's wheels were just superior at this point in the rivalry. Evert was still very good, just no longer at that very top level after 1985/86.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by boredone3456

Evert would be a horrible matchup for Seles. Evert was extremely patient and tactical in her approach to the court. She set up winners and could move her opponents around very easily when she set her mind to it. She could rip winners from seemingly impossible angles and had amazing point construction. Seles would be a player Evert would exploit big time. Evert would easily push Seles around on clay and make her run, or bait her to net to pass her easily as Seles was very awkward at net. Seles couldn't even handle Hingis, no way would she handle Evert, Hingis was very Evert-like in her approach to tennis. She would stand a chance to win the occasional set...but I doubt she could win matches.
.

USO Quarters, 1989...Evert's revenge....

previously, on clay even, Seles was making her look bad and very old.

Chris really turned it on in this particular match, doing many of the things you note above.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by Joe Pike

In which year do you think Evert played at her best ever?

On clay Chris's best ever tennis was definitely 1974-1978.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

On clay Chris's best ever tennis was definitely 1974-1978.

Wow,You could not be more wrong in my view. She dominated a weak slow court field by doing a few things very very well, The next generation included women who did many of those same things, in the same way, just about as well a la Austin, Jaeger etc. In essence a deep fast court era (60 & 70's) evolved into a deep slow court era (late 70's to mid 90's) and she and Martina bridged them both. You are confusing statistical dominance, with 'best'. Tennis stopped being about just avoiding errors, and keeping the ball deep and close to sidelines, even on clay. She was slower, weaker, had far fewer options, had a worse serve, worse volleys and worse groundstrokes and less of a sense of when to approach than she developed in the 80's.

Honestly, no one in their right mind would claim she was not better, much better after Martina and the next generation pushed her into becoming an athlete, and developing an all around game. Let's put it this way. The Evert of 77 would never have made a dent in Martina in '85 or 86 RG finals. Rallies don't last long if you are overpowered and passes don't happen if you can't reach the approach shots in time to position yourself. I guess you feel the result of the Martina threat 82-84 made Evert a worse clay court player. Maybe you think Martina's play in the '75 final was better than her play in '85 too. Geesh