Did Wilander have an under utilized serve?

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Benhur

I believe in the 88 USO final Wilander went a whole set (I think the 5th) without missing a single first serve.

He missed just 1 in the second set. He missed more in the other sets, but never more than 7 in a set.

Lendl on the other hand missed 10 straight first serves in the fifth set. He made just 6 first serves in the set. Two were aces -- big, booming aces. But maybe a higher service percentage would have been better than the aces.

[Moose Malloy]

Lendl on the other hand missed 10 straight first serves in the fifth set. He made just 6 first serves in the set.

what was his % in that set?

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

what was his % in that set?

Lendl - 24% (6/25)
Wilander - 93% (38/41)

[ahuimanu]

I also thought the same but seems as Wilander used his service consistency/percentage as his strength, which is really playing "smart" tennis. You don't hear this much anymore but my coach used to stress that "tennis is a game of errors" and I think Wilander played the percentage game extremely well (first serve in, keep the ball in play, let the other guy make the error).

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I've seen Wilander play several times and I always thought that he had excellent serve technique and could really bring it when he wanted to. The problem is that he almost never wanted to.

It's funny because, in the era that was in transition from the big game to the backcourt game, I've knew a lot of very good players who were primarily backcourt Bjorn Borg clones who could really crank their serves "when they wanted to," But, it seemed that they almost never did. I've written about this before, and I wonder to what extent their reluctance to hit the big serve and finish the point quickly was just a part of a grinder's mindset.

It would also seem that Wilander suffered from the same grinder's mindset. Wilander was a pretty big guy at 6'1" but he played like a little guy. He had a serve that could be a big weapon, but, he rarely employed it as such. Check out this clip from his 1987 US Open QF match against Mecir in which he hits some huge service aces. Clearly, Wilander could bring the heat when he wanted to. Then listen to Mary Carillo's commentary in which she alludes to Wilander's lack of a big serve when referring to the need for a big serve to win the USO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGlvP...eature=related

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

Lendl - 24% (6/25)
Wilander - 93% (38/41)

By pure coincidence I was just watching the second set of that 1988 match about a half an hour ago. It's one of my favorite matches ever.

Yes I do think Mats had an underutilized serve. I think in one of his Australian Open matches against Johan Kriek in which Mats destroyed Kriek, Kriek mentioned how good Wilander's serve was on that grass or at least words to that effect.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by pc1

I think in one of his Australian Open matches against Johan Kriek in which Mats destroyed Kriek, Kriek mentioned how good Wilander's serve was on that grass or at least words to that effect.

Interesting how Wilander beat Kriek three straights years at the AO, each time in straights. The second time was a wipeout. And Kriek was not bad on grass.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/...=W023&oId=K022

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by krosero

Interesting how Wilander beat Kriek three straights years at the AO, each time in straights. The second time was a wipeout. And Kriek was not bad on grass.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/...=W023&oId=K022

I think Mats was a bad matchup for Kriek. Kriek was a power player who fed off of power, but, could be erratic at times, which is what Mats fed off of.

[pundekman]

but he is still 5'10"....MAX!

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I think Mats was a bad matchup for Kriek. Kriek was a power player who fed off of power, but, could be erratic at times, which is what Mats fed off of.

Would explain how Wilander went undefeated against him and barely lost sets.

Here's Borg-Kriek, similar pattern: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/...=B058&oId=K022

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by pundekman

but he is still 5'10"....MAX!

He's clearly the same height as Sampras from the video of their 1990 USO handshake. What that height is, is unknown since they were both world class slouchers . . . even when shaking hands.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

He's clearly the same height as Sampras from the video of their 1990 USO handshake. What that height is, is unknown since they were both world class slouchers . . . even when shaking hands.

Yeah, I have no idea what people are thinking. It is clear in the video that both are pretty close in height. Sampras was probably 6 to 6'1 (he may have even grown a half an inch after that match...who knows), and Wilander is likely around 6'.

I wrote about players exaggerating their height many times...for a long time (as I pointed out to TMF (rolls eyes)), but I do not think either Agassi or Sampras are exaggerating significantly (Agassi MIGHT be a shade under, though he looked pretty close when I saw him). IF they were, Mcenroe, Federer....well TONS of players must be as well, as they seem correct in comparison to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JZpov0LNZs

Note the handshake here as well. He's was not 5'10! Though he certainly appears it now, when he's slouching around and looking shorter than Mac! That wasn't always the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tjFfrRu2qM&NR=1

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Yeah, I have no idea what people are thinking. It is clear in the video that both are pretty close in height. Sampras was probably 6 to 6'1 (he may have even grown a half an inch after that match...who knows), and Wilander is likely around 6'.

I wrote about players exaggerating their height many times...for a long time (as I pointed out to TMF (rolls eyes)), but I do not think either Agassi or Sampras are exaggerating significantly (Agassi MIGHT be a shade under, though he looked pretty close when I saw him). IF they were, Mcenroe, Federer....well TONS of players must be as well, as they seem correct in comparison to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JZpov0LNZs

Note the handshake here as well. He's was not 5'10! Though he certainly appears it now, when he's slouching around and looking shorter than Mac! That wasn't always the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tjFfrRu2qM&NR=1

Mats definitely looks a shade taller than Mac in that handshake. BTW, did you notice the big serves Mats hit in the beginning of that video? When you're serving like that, why change in mid set?

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

BTW, did you notice the big serves Mats hit in the beginning of that video? When you're serving like that, why change in mid set?

Possibly the nervousness of knowing that it's match game for McEnroe.

Also he missed a lot of first serves in that second game, compared to the previous game. Did he really make any intentional change, or did the pressure just make him less relaxed?

[krosero]

Anyone know what Wilander's career high in aces might be?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by krosero

Possibly the nervousness of knowing that it's match game for McEnroe.

Also he missed a lot of first serves in that second game, compared to the previous game. Did he really make any intentional change, or did the pressure just make him less relaxed?

I can see Mats responding to pressure by playing it safe. That's his mindset. But, that's the point of my thread. He had a weapon that he didn't put to full use.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I can see Mats responding to pressure by playing it safe. That's his mindset. But, that's the point of my thread. He had a weapon that he didn't put to full use.

I hear that, and I think it's a valid question. But just in that clip, I don't see him playing it safe in that last game. He wasn't spinning his first serves in carefully. He was faulting them, still going for them. He just appears less relaxed, thus less successful in getting hard, accurate first serves.

I do think you can see startling differences in Wilander's serves if you compare matches from different years. His matches in '88 are probably the best example of a mindset toward getting the first ball in. Let's see, he had only 2 aces against Lendl in that long USO final. Only 1 ace in his semi against Cahill. At the AO he had just 2 aces in the five-set final. I read somewhere that he had no aces in his five-set semifinal against Edberg.

Whereas you do see him serving big, with more aces, in matches from the mid-80s. Even as late at that Mecir match you linked to (I have him serving 10 aces in that one).

[Zimbo]

Originally Posted by krosero

Anyone know what Wilander's career high in aces might be?

The best I ever saw Wilander serve was when he beat Edberg in the '88 finals at the ATP Cincinnati. He was serving bombs. It was a great three setter that was won in a 3rd set tie breaker. Both players were playing at a very high level. It think the score was 3-6, 7-6, 7-6. Oddly enough it was on Wilander's birthday. Not sure how many aces he hit but it was around 12-15 if my memory serves me correctly. Wilander even made a comment afterwards that there was something about Cincinnati where he appears to always serve well at that event.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Zimbo

Wilander even made a comment afterwards that there was something about Cincinnati where he appears to always serve well at that event.

He knew it was the fifth Slam, long before we did.

[kiki]

Mats serve was jsut average and, certainly, the weakest if compared to the other big players of his playing days - except for Connors-.However, his returning was so steady that he could make for the lack of a big serve.If you look at his results on grass and hard, he beat big serving players at the finals.

He also was good at teasing his opponent playing unexpected Serve and Volley by surprise.he did that against Lendl at the US Open in 88 but also other few times on clay, as I have seen live.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by krosero

He knew it was the fifth Slam, long before we did.

LOL, ha ha, good one