Event´s Comparison 1970-1989/ 1990-2011

[kiki]

Here is my list of events that can be compared in the 2 cycles of pro tennis history ( 1968-1989 and 1990-2011)

1990-2011

First Tier: the 4 slams
Second Tier: Masters Cup and Miami ( " the fifth slam")
Third Tier: Paris Indoors,Sangai,Toronto,Cinicnnati,Rome,Indian Wells, Montecarlo and Madrid

1968-1989

First Tier: Wimbledon,US Open,Roland Garros
Second Tier: Australian Open,WCT Finals,Masters Cup
Third Tier: Rome,Johannesburg,Tokyo,Hamburg,Toronto,Las Vegas,Palm Springs and Philadelphia

There were no Masters 9 but 15-20 Superseries and, even if it is hard to pick the best 8 out of that list, here is my list

Of course, from 1968 to 1970 we had no WCT Finals or Masters, so I clearly pick Johannesburg and Rome as a replacement for those 2-3 years, which certainly were great years for the SA Open and the Italian Open

[westside]

1990-2011

First Tier: Cincinnati
Second Tier: 4 Slams
Third Tier: Masters Cup

[kiki]

Originally Posted by westside

1990-2011

First Tier: Cincinnati
Second Tier: 4 Slams
Third Tier: Masters Cup

Are you from Ohio?

[kiki]

... and there were still more plenty of second tier events in the 70´s, when WCT and ITF (Gran Prix) ran separate tours.

[borg number one]

Kiki, good thread. It's important to understand how differently the Tour is structured these days relative to past eras. 1982 was a important year as the WCT started to fade away. There was a real battle in pro tennis. From 1982-1984, The WCT sued the Men's Tennis Council. Meanwhile, the Men's Tennis Council organized the Grand Prix circuit. Per wiki, "A settlement resulted in WCT's reincorporation into the Grand Prix in 1985." This battle involving the WCT caused some big changes. It was at about this time when the Tour officials instituted a new rule requiring pros to play at least 10 "official" tournaments a year. Otherwise, one would have to qualify to play in majors. During 1981-early 1983, Bjorn Borg was fighting with Tour officials, in that he wanted to drop down below 10 "official" tourneys for a while and focus more on majors in terms of competitive play. When officials at both Wimbledon and the French Open insisted that he would have to qualify for those majors in 1982-1983 since he was not playing in 10 official tourneys a year, that really made his decision final. He would leave the Tour rather than simply comply with Tour demands during a time of considerable upheaval. Anyway, this topic is very interesting. So many tennis fans make the mistaken assumption that players of the past play with roughly the same format as players from past eras.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Championship_Tennis

The WCT tour was merged into the Grand Prix circuit in 1978. The WCT withdrew from 1982 to 1984, and at this time sued the Men's Tennis Council who organized the Grand Prix circuit. A settlement resulted in WCT's reincorporation into the Grand Prix in 1985.
1989 was the last season of WCT. The ATP established its own tennis circuit from 1990. The WCT had an important impact on the development of tennis certainly from the players prospective. Although there were fewer tournaments to the rival Grand Prix Circuit the prize money was much larger.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by borg number one

Kiki, good thread. It's important to understand how differently the Tour is structured these days relative to past eras. 1982 was a important year as the WCT started to fade away. There was a real battle in pro tennis. From 1982-1984, The WCT sued the Men's Tennis Council. Meanwhile, the Men's Tennis Council organized the Grand Prix circuit. Per wiki, "A settlement resulted in WCT's reincorporation into the Grand Prix in 1985." This battle involving the WCT in which really heated up 1982 caused some big changes. It was at about this time when the Tour officials instituted a new rule requiring pros to play at least 10 "official" tournaments a year. Otherwise, one would have to qualify to play in majors. During 1981-early 1983, Bjorn Borg was fighting with Tour officials, in that he wanted to drop down below 10 "official" tourneys for a while and focus more on majors in terms of competitive play. When officials at both Wimbledon and the French Open insisted that he would have to qualify for those majors in 1982-1983 since he was not playing in 10 official tourneys a year, that really made his decision final. He would leave the Tour rather simply comply with Tour demands during a time of considerable upheaval. Anyway, this topic is very interesting. So many tennis fans make the mistaken assumption that simply players of the past play with roughly the same format as players from past eras.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Championship_Tennis

true.AAMOF, WCT started off in 1971 separately from the GP, and many of the best players would not play the GS events, because of their WCT contract.In 78 WCT and GP merged till 81.From then on, Lamar Hunt and Al Hill tried to split up and enhance their tour which, due to finantial shortcomings was reduced to a few events in 1983,84,85 and slowly fade away.

I remember Lendl played and won all the 10 WCT events he competed at the WCT Tour, as well as the Spring and Winter finals.WCT computers placed him at nº 1, when it was pretty obvious to anybody that Connors was the real nº1 (Connors didn´t enter the WCT tour that, for the most part, was Ivan´s one man show)

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by kiki

true.AAMOF, WCT started off in 1971 separately from the GP, and many of the best players would not play the GS events, because of their WCT contract.In 78 WCT and GP merged till 81.From then on, Lamar Hunt and Al Hill tried to split up and enhance their tour which, due to finantial shortcomings was reduced to a few events in 1983,84,85 and slowly fade away.

I remember Lendl played and won all the 10 WCT events he competed at the WCT Tour, as well as the Spring and Winter finals.WCT computers placed him at nº 1, when it was pretty obvious to anybody that Connors was the real nº1 (Connors didn´t enter the WCT tour that, for the most part, was Ivan´s one man show)

Famous 1982. season and amazing run in WCT tournaments

I made thread about best players in same tournaments over years (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=393473) and in 1982. Jimbo and Ivan entered only 5 tournaments togehter.. Roland Garros, Montreal / Toronto, Cincinnati, US Open, Masters

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

Famous 1982. season and amazing run in WCT tournaments

I made thread about best players in same tournaments over years (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=393473) and in 1982. Jimbo and Ivan entered only 5 tournaments togehter.. Roland Garros, Montreal / Toronto, Cincinnati, US Open, Masters

Yes.As a matter of fact, just Vilas, Clerc,Higueras and Gerulaitis, other than Lendl were the top ten players that regularly entered WCT.JMac just played the Dallas Finals (they probably made an exception with him since he didn´t have enough points to qualify).Rest of top ten didn´t play any WCT tournament.

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by kiki

Yes.As a matter of fact, just Vilas, Clerc,Higueras and Gerulaitis, other than Lendl were the top ten players that regularly entered WCT.JMac just played the Dallas Finals (they probably made an exception with him since he didn´t have enough points to qualify).Rest of top ten didn´t play any WCT tournament.

How many great matches between all of them we lost in that years

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

How many great matches between all of them we lost in that years

Still we were lucky that, gone Borg, suddenly came a Wilander, who kind of replace him.That and the reemergence of Connors.

[timnz]

Originally Posted by kiki

Here is my list of events that can be compared in the 2 cycles of pro tennis history ( 1968-1989 and 1990-2011)

1990-2011

First Tier: the 4 slams
Second Tier: Masters Cup and Miami ( " the fifth slam")
Third Tier: Paris Indoors,Sangai,Toronto,Cinicnnati,Rome,Indian Wells, Montecarlo and Madrid

1968-1989

First Tier: Wimbledon,US Open,Roland Garros
Second Tier: Australian Open,WCT Finals,Masters Cup
Third Tier: Rome,Johannesburg,Tokyo,Hamburg,Toronto,Las Vegas,Palm Springs and Philadelphia

There were no Masters 9 but 15-20 Superseries and, even if it is hard to pick the best 8 out of that list, here is my list

Of course, from 1968 to 1970 we had no WCT Finals or Masters, so I clearly pick Johannesburg and Rome as a replacement for those 2-3 years, which certainly were great years for the SA Open and the Italian Open

Miami being considered the 'fifth Slam' was really only a concept used in the 90's. In the last decade or so, it doesn't have a greater status than say Indian Wells. Even in the 90's it wasn't worth any more points than the other Masters 1000 events.

Regarding the Third Tier from 1968 to 1989 - as you can see from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_P...ries_1970-1989
the tournaments changed over time. So unfortunately I don't think you can fix them to specific tournaments.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by timnz

Miami being considered the 'fifth Slam' was really only a concept used in the 90's. In the last decade or so, it doesn't have a greater status than say Indian Wells. Even in the 90's it wasn't worth any more points than the other Masters 1000 events.

Regarding the Third Tier from 1968 to 1989 - as you can see from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_P...ries_1970-1989
the tournaments changed over time. So unfortunately I don't think you can fix them to specific tournaments.

So, which tournament in the US would be a second tier...along Master Cup

in 70´s-80´s:

2 majors in Europe
1 in Australia
2-3 in the US ( but the Masters was held at many venues, so I think it should have been given to Asia-Pacific and that would be more equal)

[Moose Malloy]

Miami being considered the 'fifth Slam' was really only a concept used in the 90's. In the last decade or so, it doesn't have a greater status than say Indian Wells. Even in the 90's it wasn't worth any more points than the other Masters 1000 events.

the fifth slam label was more prevalent in the 80s than the 90s for the Lipton. It was initially a 128 player draw event that was best of 5 all rounds! and more ranking points were available there than at the AO, you can see at atp tennis that Mecir got more points for winning Miami in '87 than Edberg did for winning the AO that year.

[timnz]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

the fifth slam label was more prevalent in the 80s than the 90s for the Lipton. It was initially a 128 player draw event that was best of 5 all rounds! and more ranking points were available there than at the AO, you can see at atp tennis that Mecir got more points for winning Miami in '87 than Edberg did for winning the AO that year.

The depth of field from particularly 1988 onwards seemed on par with the other Grand Slams and it was best of 5 then for all rounds. Does anyone know what year the Australian Open became on par with the other slams in terms of points won?

[Moose Malloy]

When was Australian Open equal to other slams in points won?

quality points were offered at all events through most of the 80s/90s, so the slams never matched up exactly in points during that time, but the AO was so far behind in points from the other 3, that I think its safe to say 1996 was the first year that it got equal points(& it actually ended up being a few points higher than the other 3 majors that year)

the atp site does have points breakdowns for all events from '84 on, surprised you haven't taken a look at it since you seem to mention points a lot in your posts.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by timnz

Miami being considered the 'fifth Slam' was really only a concept used in the 90's. In the last decade or so, it doesn't have a greater status than say Indian Wells. Even in the 90's it wasn't worth any more points than the other Masters 1000 events.

Regarding the Third Tier from 1968 to 1989 - as you can see from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_P...ries_1970-1989
the tournaments changed over time. So unfortunately I don't think you can fix them to specific tournaments.

No, in those years prestige and reputation counted for much more than money...so SA and Italian Open were clearly the best tournaments aside GS

As for 1990-on, I just wanted to put things in comparison temrs with 1970-1989.So, even if the Masters remained, we would need a replacement for WCT Finals...and I can not find a better event than Miami...southern US as Dallas, and a differential ( nº of players vs rest of top 9, best of five matches, being a US tournament...) that makes this event, the replacement for Dallas, even if I know they have nothing to see..