Bob Hewitt story on Real Sports Nov 22nd. HBO

[Joe Pike]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

You have to consider that this was the 1970s, an era of progress in gay rights, sexual liberation, pornography, etc. People had no way of knowing at the time whether sex with children would also become normalized. Had that happened, someone speaking out against Hewett would eventually be demonized just like someone today who in the 1950s had informed to the police about interracial sexual activity in the south or illegal homosexual activity.

Now that we've been taught which once-condemned sexual practices are OK or not, it's easy to be Monday-morning quarterbacks.

Ouch, that will get you into trouble here ...

[gavna]

Originally Posted by equinox

By the standards of the day, ted tinling would be tainted by your broad brush.

This HOF'er hasn't been convicted of an offence, only accusations.

In the spirit of justice, he deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise by law.

No, what ADULTS do between themselves is not the issue. He wasn't forcing himself on women. He has been accused (and unfortunately known around tennis circles for years) of raping GIRLS....I still can't find any cultural norms of adults having sex with children. You CANNOT compare pedophilia to adult homosexual or heterosexual norms.

[gavna]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

You have to consider that this was the 1970s, an era of progress in gay rights, sexual liberation, pornography, etc. People had no way of knowing at the time whether sex with children would also become normalized. Had that happened, someone speaking out against Hewett would eventually be demonized just like someone today who in the 1950s had informed to the police about interracial sexual activity in the south or illegal homosexual activity.

Now that we've been taught which once-condemned sexual practices are OK or not, it's easy to be Monday-morning quarterbacks.

You cannot be serious????? the more look at Thai post the more I am baffled by your total lack of logic???? Do you actually believe that sexual relations between adults and children would ever become the accepted norm? And using the 70s as some mystical time is wack - I was in college and high school in the 70s and I didn't run into any folks looking to hook up with 10 year olds.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Tcbtennis

I watched the Real Sports story on Bob Hewitt and there is no doubt that the accusations have merit. d.

Yes, I've been well aware of the story since it broke....well even before that, it certainly SEEMS like the accusations have merit, and I hope all sides have their fair chance to present their evidence.

But SEEMING to have merit, and jumping to a conclusion of guilt is just a step that should never be taken. Countless times in history, there have been cases where sex abuse (or other things) were alleged, with multiple accusers, only to be proven later false. So we need to be careful.

Originally Posted by gavna

Are you F****ing kidding me!!!!!! There are NO other sides regarding having sex with 10, 11 or 12 year old CHILDREN. He did it in S Africa and the USA but in the case of the Boston girl the statute of limitations is past and no charges can be brought. It's clear r.

Yikes.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by gavna

....I still can't find any cultural norms of adults having sex with children. You CANNOT compare pedophilia to adult homosexual or heterosexual norms.

? There have actually been many cultures, historically, and even in contemporary time for which sex with "children" has been condoned, or even encouraged. One culture, speaking of homsexual practice, believes that young boys coming of age, must engage in oral sex with adult men, so that they can begin to produce semen of their own.

Originally Posted by gavna

You cannot be serious????? the more look at Thai post the more I am baffled by your total lack of logic???? Do you actually believe that sexual relations between adults and children would ever become the accepted norm? And using the 70s as some mystical time is wack - I was in college and high school in the 70s and I didn't run into any folks looking to hook up with 10 year olds.

The idea has been debated in academic circles...anthropology, psychology etc. A lot of research has been published on the subject. Movements that were somewhat pro-pedophile...or at least perceived that way, have occasionally gotten attention in the mainstream.

[Tshooter]

"I watched the Real Sports story on Bob Hewitt and there is no doubt that the accusations have merit. "

I did too and I agree.

FS: "You have to consider that this was the 1970s, an era of progress in gay rights, sexual liberation, pornography, etc. People had no way of knowing at the time whether sex with children would also become normalized"

I'll just let that sit out there and allow the stench to waft over it. Perhaps you can pass the turd on to Mr. Moore because he seemed very upset by his inaction.

Equinox: "In the spirit of justice, he deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise by law.",

He has the "benefit of the doubt." And a legal presumption of innocence if charged in a US court. That's not the issue. It's whether the accusations will be investigated by anyone. Whether any criminal authority will. Whether any tennis related organizations will.

In the spirit of justice which we are both apparently concerned with, there is no way he should be allowed to creep away from these accusations without them being investigated.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Tshooter

In the spirit of justice which we are both apparently concerned with, there is no way he should be allowed to creep away from these accusations without them being investigated.

I'm sure at least most(all?0 of us agree that if the evidence is there, the matter should be investigated by law authorities, and brought to trial if warranted.

[gavna]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

? There have actually been many cultures, historically, and even in contemporary time for which sex with "children" has been condoned, or even encouraged. One culture, speaking of homsexual practice, believes that young boys coming of age, must engage in oral sex with adult men, so that they can begin to produce semen of their own.



The idea has been debated in academic circles...anthropology, psychology etc. A lot of research has been published on the subject. Movements that were somewhat pro-pedophile...or at least perceived that way, have occasionally gotten attention in the mainstream.

Please enlighten me then. I'm not talking about Greeks 3000 yrs ago having male lovers, or some crazy cult or relgion in hiding in the mexican mountains that allows child brides, oh yes the professional pedophiles at NAMBLA have spouted this kind of rhetoric but I would love to hear more about mainstream cultures.....since you are so well read on the subject what books or academics defend this? Where in the civilized (yes I said it) world is this accepted?

[gavna]

Originally Posted by Tshooter

"I watched the Real Sports story on Bob Hewitt and there is no doubt that the accusations have merit. "

I did too and I agree.

FS: "You have to consider that this was the 1970s, an era of progress in gay rights, sexual liberation, pornography, etc. People had no way of knowing at the time whether sex with children would also become normalized"

I'll just let that sit out there and allow the stench to waft over it. Perhaps you can pass the turd on to Mr. Moore because he seemed very upset by his inaction.

Equinox: "In the spirit of justice, he deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise by law.",

He has the "benefit of the doubt." And a legal presumption of innocence if charged in a US court. That's not the issue. It's whether the accusations will be investigated by anyone. Whether any criminal authority will. Whether any tennis related organizations will.

In the spirit of justice which we are both apparently concerned with, there is no way he should be allowed to creep away from these accusations without them being investigated.

Excellent, the "benefit of doubt" is an American concept and will not apply everywhere....you need to read the Boston Globe article as its even worse than what HBO did with 15min. Hewitt in the 60s, 70s and 80s was teaching in Europe, the US and Australia at times, is very possible others will be able to come forward now.

[Tcbtennis]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

You have to consider that this was the 1970s, an era of progress in gay rights, sexual liberation, pornography, etc. People had no way of knowing at the time whether sex with children would also become normalized. Had that happened, someone speaking out against Hewett would eventually be demonized just like someone today who in the 1950s had informed to the police about interracial sexual activity in the south or illegal homosexual activity.

Now that we've been taught which once-condemned sexual practices are OK or not, it's easy to be Monday-morning quarterbacks.

When I read a post such as this, my first reaction is "Wow, you are an idiot". So you believe that during the 70's when women were marching for equality, and homosexuals were marching for rights, there was a question of whether it was OK to **** children. I must have missed the little kids marching down the street demanding their rights to have forcible sex with old men.

These acts did not occur in communities where young women were married off to the older men. Yes, it may have been tolerated in that situation. But these acts occurred on tennis courts when these girls (as young as 10 years) were getting tennis lessons. He would beg them not to tell anybody because he knew he was doing wrong. The fact that he was able to stay out of the justice system all these years means that he has already been given the benefit of doubt multiple times by people who knew that he was a ******* or who had heard the "stories" about his perversion.

[Tshooter]

TCB, don't dignify it with a response.

Unless, of course, you are professionally trained to analyze scat. Then go for it.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by gavna

Please enlighten me then. I'm not talking about Greeks 3000 yrs ago having male lovers, or some crazy cult or relgion in hiding in the mexican mountains that allows child brides, oh yes the professional pedophiles at NAMBLA have spouted this kind of rhetoric but I would love to hear more about mainstream cultures.....since you are so well read on the subject what books or academics defend this? Where in the civilized (yes I said it) world is this accepted?

This doesn't sound sincere at all, nor does it sound very rational. The example I gave was from the Sambia. More importantly, why would you wish to discard so many (the majority: were we to take temporal factors into account) cultures? That is in fact the very point, cultural standards can vary wildly over time and space. What you now call "civilized" is likely to be quite different from the standards of many others.

[Tshooter]

Ah more gems from the keyboard of datacipher & co. Aren't you supposed to be finding that misquote of mine -- you know, the "intellectually dishonest one" from the other thread ?

Out of curiosity, what planet are you from ? I can recommend some really nice spots to see on planet earth though I should caution you that we look down on sexual abuse and will assert jurisdiction over aliens.

You're starting to annoy me with your phony intellectual arguments. Why not move on to Intelligent Design as a Science, holocaust revisionism or Bush blew up the Trade Towers. Just for a change of pace.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Ah more gems from the keyboard of datacipher & co.

Alright...I'll do my best to respond to every line of your post.

"& co."? LOL

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Aren't you supposed to be finding that misquote of mine -- you know, the "intellectually dishonest one" from the other thread ?

I have no idea what you're referring to. You'll have to be more specific...is it relevant to this topic?

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Out of curiosity, what planet are you from ?

Earth

Originally Posted by Tshooter

I can recommend some really nice spots to see on planet earth though I should caution you that we look down on sexual abuse and will assert jurisdiction over aliens.

Good.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

You're starting to annoy me with your phony intellectual arguments.

You're entitled to your own emotional reaction.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Why not move on to Intelligent Design as a Science,

I don't see how that follows. Sorry. Actually, the post I just wrote, in response to a person's request for information, was actually one which most would say supports the notion of cultural relativism, which would, in a general sense, be much more compatible with atheism.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

holocaust revisionism or Bush blew up the Trade Towers. Just for a change of pace.

Again. These seem totally unrelated. Sounds like you're quite a conspiracy buff.

Over the course of this thread, and a related thread, the post you made above is a great aggressive, and very emotional reponses you've been making. Obviously this is a very sore spot for you. This topic is one that can be very sensitive, but insults don't help anything, least of all the possible victims. Most(all?) of the people you've been attacking have been very level-headed and even-keeled with their responses. Some even trying to search for common ground (as i did in post 27).

If you wish to assume Hewitt's guilt, nobody can stop you. But there is no rational reason to take out your anger towards him, on people on this board. Not one of which, that I have noticed, has assumed Hewitt's innocence.

[Tshooter]

"These seem totally unrelated. Sounds like you're quite a conspiracy buff. "

I suspect you pretend not to get the point. But in the event you are on the level,

Once we discuss the absurd notion that people might not have involved themselves in the 1970s because they had some fear that a future world might exist in which raping your tennis student was socially acceptable, that one would live to see that day and that, heaven forbid, one would have to decades later face the consequences of a social stink eye from people that figured out that you outed the rapist then we are in the neighborhood of having to respond to all manner of lunacy.

And since this topic reached absurdistan with Silbermann's post and your related noise about cultural relativism (as if Hewitt ever stepped foot with a student in any jurisdiction in which raping your student was socially acceptable ), I suggested you use those rational powers of yours to move to similarly ridiculous and irrelevant notions. For a change of pace.

Your jumping up and down about the presumption of innocence is a canard as well. I didn't say he was legally guilty. I said I thought the allegations had merit. I said it needs to be investigated.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Tshooter

"These seem totally unrelated. Sounds like you're quite a conspiracy buff. "

I suspect you pretend not to get the point. But in the event you are on the level,

When people begin to fire out vague accusations, insults, and rhetoric, but do not give me a single specific argument (as I believe I demonstrated by going through your post exhaustively LINE by LINE.), I try to bring some semblance of rationality back to the discussion by asking for specifics, and getting specific. I do like the fact that to your credit, you didnt' even try to hide the fact that you were just going for blanket accusations eg "datacipher & co.", but of course, doing that is both unfair, and unproductive.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Once we discuss the absurd notion that people might not have involved themselves in the 1970s because they had some fear that a future world might exist in which raping your tennis student was socially acceptable,

AH GOOD. Good. Now you're finally presenting a specific argument. HOWEVER, you need to take that up with FRANK SILBERMANN. If you look, you'll see it was he who presented this argument in post #16. I did not discuss the or endorse the premise. It's not good enough to simply start saying "datacipher & co." In fact, until this moment, I had no idea who the "co." was even supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

And since this topic reached absurdistan with Silbermann's post and your related noise about cultural relativism (as if Hewitt ever stepped foot with a student in any jurisdiction in which raping your student was socially acceptable ),

Good, you recognize that it was not my post which contained that premise. Simply proclaiming what I wrote as "related noise" is meaningless. At no time did I ever suggest that premise. Please reread what I wrote specifically, quote it directly, and reply to that.

To aid you, here are ALL of my posts in this thread (except one word), until the one you are most recently responding to. This is what I am responsible for:

"No, in fact, they were pretty notorious for not being very chummy...just undeniably successful! Of course, a number of women's teams seem to have been like this over the years, but usually the men seem to get along reasonably or they part ways."

"I didn't see it either, but surely it is is best to reserve ultimate judgment. There may well be other sides to the story, and as tempting as it is, given the distastefulness of the accusations, I don't think we should make final judgement based on early media."

"Yes, I've been well aware of the story since it broke....well even before that, it certainly SEEMS like the accusations have merit, and I hope all sides have their fair chance to present their evidence.

But SEEMING to have merit, and jumping to a conclusion of guilt is just a step that should never be taken. Countless times in history, there have been cases where sex abuse (or other things) were alleged, with multiple accusers, only to be proven later false. So we need to be careful. "

"? There have actually been many cultures, historically, and even in contemporary time for which sex with "children" has been condoned, or even encouraged. One culture, speaking of homsexual practice, believes that young boys coming of age, must engage in oral sex with adult men, so that they can begin to produce semen of their own."

"The idea has been debated in academic circles...anthropology, psychology etc. A lot of research has been published on the subject. Movements that were somewhat pro-pedophile...or at least perceived that way, have occasionally gotten attention in the mainstream"

"I'm sure at least most(all?0 of us agree that if the evidence is there, the matter should be investigated by law authorities, and brought to trial if warranted."

"This doesn't sound sincere at all, nor does it sound very rational. The example I gave was from the Sambia. More importantly, why would you wish to discard so many (the majority: were we to take temporal factors into account) cultures? That is in fact the very point, cultural standards can vary wildly over time and space. What you now call "civilized" is likely to be quite different from the standards of many others."

You may certainly respond to any of these lines directly. Simply quote them, and either state your specific objection, or ask for elaboration. That would be by far the most productive course, if you truly have issues with anything I have said. I don't believe anything written above is particularly controversial, nor was it intended to be. It certainly has drawn your ire, and a great deal of insult from you. There is no need for that.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Your jumping up and down about the presumption of innocence is a canard as well. I didn't say he was legally guilty. I said I thought the allegations had merit. I said it needs to be investigated.

Please reread the last post carefully. I said "if you wish to assume Hewitt is guilty, nobody can stop you. But..." This is very different than what you are claiming above. Further, as I pointed out in the last post, it was I who tried to find common ground in post 27 by saying all of us could likely agree on the need for investigation. An olive branch that obviously was not well received. Nevertheless, I feel that we are starting to make progress, in narrowing down the actual arguments you seemingly disagree with.

[Tshooter]

"you'll see it was he who presented this argument in post #16. I did not discuss the or endorse the premise."

I didn't say you did, as you are aware. I said your noise about alleged cultural norms relating to sex with children. Noise as in not relevant to Hewitt/Moore.

Which way do you want it. The entire dubious cultural norms discussion was noise (irrespective of the fact that you raised it in response to gavna) or its somehow relevant to Hewitt's situation ?

And what exactly does this mean:

"why would you wish to discard so many (the majority: were we to take temporal factors into account) cultures?

Assuming the bogus parenthetical is true, of course I want to "discard" them when it comes to my own culture -- the one Hewitt taught in. Of what possible relevance are they unless you think there is some merit to Silberman's inane post or you are just adding more irrelevant noise to the thread?

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Tshooter

"you'll see it was he who presented this argument in post #16. I did not discuss the or endorse the premise."

I didn't say you did, as you are aware. I said your noise about alleged cultural norms relating to sex with children. Noise as in not relevant to Hewitt/Moore.

Oh! Well in that case, you should address your objection to Gavna, whom I quoted when wrote that.

Originally Posted by gavna
....I still can't find any cultural norms of adults having sex with children. You CANNOT compare pedophilia to adult homosexual or heterosexual norms.

Originally Posted by Tshooter

Which way do you want it. The entire dubious cultural norms discussion was noise (irrespective of the fact that you raised it in response to gavna) or its somehow relevant to Hewitt's situation ?

Huh?! Now I see you realize Gavna raised the issue, as I just wrote above. There is no reason to ask me this, you could raise either of those 2 issues with Gavna. It was his line of argument. I cannot speak for him, or say for certain where he was going with it. (certainly it appears based on his earlier posts to Equinox that his basic argument was: sex with children in fundamentally different than other sexual practices, and thus will never be a cultural norm, as evidence by it never having been a cultural norm. I merely pointed out that the latter part is not true.)

Originally Posted by Tshooter

And what exactly does this mean:

"why would you wish to discard so many (the majority: were we to take temporal factors into account) cultures?

Assuming the bogus parenthetical is true, of course I want to "discard" them when it comes to my own culture -- the one Hewitt taught in.

Now you're doing a very irrational thing. You are taking something I wrote as a direct reply to something Gavna asserted (about no cultures having those practices), and speaking as if it was written to YOU in a completely different context (whether such practices are relevant to Hewitt)

What that quote refers to is that when Gavna wanted to know examples of cultures in which that practice was condoned, but then added in several somewhat vague limitations on which cultures would be acceptable to him, I questioned the reasoning behind those limitations. If it was indeed to show, as it appears Gavna was asserting, that no different cultures have accepted this practice, but you then say, very different cultures (whether different temporally/spatially/or in degree of "civilization") don't count, you have in fact made an absurd circular argument.

PLEASE NOTE: that when I provided all the post I wrote, and said you should reply to them directly (which you certainly may!), it did not mean that you should NOT read what they were replying to (as always, I quoted what I replying to), so that you understand the context. You definitely should not read them, as if they are fresh new replies directed at you, at whatever you happen to be thinking right now.

[BTURNER]

We sure are looking hard for excuses to quarrel here or reasons to continue with discord. This is silly.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

We sure are looking hard for excuses to quarrel here or reasons to continue with discord. This is silly.

Agreed. As I said, I really did not expect anything I posted in this thread to be particularly controversial. As I suggested much earlier, I would think we would all agree that we hope this matter will be investigated fully, and if warranted, brought to trial, and then hopefully (which is often unwarranted hope admittedly), justice is served.