Nadal wasn't at his best

[DMan]

Originally Posted by Clarky21

Dramatic much? Nobody is saying that,but the fact is Nadal looked like a shell of himself out there. How in the world some of you *******s can sit there and act like Nadal played his best and Fed was just too good is nothing but bs.

Oh Clarky darling, but it's true my dear it's true. You just saw Nadal at his absolute peak best ever. And yeah, Fed was too good. Now ain't life grand!

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by sunny_cali

Indeed you have to love the double-standards around here. If Rafa wins against Fed, he is a warrior who beat Fed playing at his best. If Fed has the temerity to win, Rafa was tired/sick/not at his best/poor strategy.

Precisely! It is a peach isn't it?

Nadal fans have to deal now with what Federer fans were dealing with in Federer's game from 2008 on. Federer was never the same and started to decline then and Nadal was fresh as a daisy. Now Nadal looks like crap and Djkovic has come along. That's tennis.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by cc0509

True but in the meantime Murray and Florian Mayer defeated Nadal and he just looked horrible in Asia. However, those events were not slams and Nadal seems to kick it up for slam events so nobody knows for sure but Nadal's game does not look healthy to me right now that much is for sure.

Yes but people have a tendency to form longterm conclusions based on current results(it's just human nature).

Nadal was rarely that brilliant post USO in any year basically, he always had an odd loss or two which didn't stop him from coming back strongly next year.

On the whole this was still a good year for Nadal, we'll see what the next year will bring.

[dudeski]

Originally Posted by sunny_cali

So, which ******* claimed that Nadal was at his best ?

On an unrelated topic, do you think Fed was at his best during AO09/Wimb 08 ?

Clearly the 17 times Nadal won is because he is better than Federer. The 9 times Fededer won is because Nadal wasn't playing anywhere near his best due to sickness of the ... Therefore H2H is 26-0 in favour of Nadal and Nadal is the undisputed GOAT. Also, all Nadal fans are amazing human beings and Fedtarts suck!

[abmk]

Originally Posted by zagor

Yes but overall higher level doesn't neccesarily translate to a higher level in a single given match, Fed might lose all of his remaining matches at WTF and still have played at a higher level against Nadal in particualar this year than last year at WTF, it isn't black and white.

Last year's final Fed had a 2nd set dip(usual for him these days) which allowed Nadal back in, maybe this year that wouldn't have happened either way.

fed actually returned crappily in the first 2 sets in last year's final. But in the first set, he was so hot off the ground that it didn't really matter. But his crappy returning along with a bad service game cost him the second.

In the 3rd , he didn't really play that well off the ground as the first, but returned much better, hence 6-1 .

Nadal did play better in the last year finals, but he didn't play badly this year. He played ok, but just got overwhelmed ..

fed in yesterday's match was better than the one in the finals last year

[namelessone]

Originally Posted by zagor

So Nadal was lying in his presser?

I hope he is lying otherwise he has some major delusions. Playing with two second serves, getting 4 BALLS past Fed in 15 games and doing all this from the first row is playing good? Or let me rephrase that, "not that bad".

Originally Posted by zagor

Yes but overall higher level doesn't neccesarily translate to a higher level in a single given match, Fed might lose all of his remaining matches at WTF and still have played at a higher level against Nadal in particualar this year than last year at WTF, it isn't black and white.

Last year's final Fed had a 2nd set dip(usual for him these days) which allowed Nadal back in, maybe this year that wouldn't have happened either way.

Let me put it this way, Nadal had something to come back unlike yesterday with and Fed worked more to get that first set than he did in the whole encounter on Tuesday. I don't think he broke a sweat tbh. Even if Fed did give an opening, Nadal couldn't have taken it since he was in the first row most of the time and serving powderpuffs.

Originally Posted by zagor

So he's either lying or he's crazy

Bingo.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by namelessone

I know a guy who is a tennis coach who said that Nadal has barely looked like a top 30 player in the last months and he knows far more than me about this sport.

But does he know more than Rafa himself about his own (Nadal's) game?

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by DMan

Whaddya mean Nadal wasn't at his best?

This was peak Nadal at absolutely peak form in an absolutely critical important tournament!

Hey, now I get to play the "let's declare who is in peak form.....cuz I know best!" game.

And about the fact that Nadal ALWAYS has some kind of injury excuse?! You don't say! I mean You Don't Say!

Seriously I am a huge Federer fan and even I can admit Nadal is not in his best peak form. Does not take away from Federer's win because the win is all that matters and Federer was in God mode but Nadal looks like crap to me and has not looked great for the past 8 months. His style of grinding play is finally catching up with him at least that is how it appears to me.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by cc0509

Precisely! It is a peach isn't it?

Nadal fans have to deal now with what Federer fans were dealing with in Federer's game from 2008 on. Federer was never the same and started to decline then and Nadal was fresh as a daisy. Now Nadal looks like crap and Djkovic has come along. That's tennis.

But that's the thing, if they ( TW Nadal fans) showed a bit more restraint in those days and didn't kick Fed when he was down so much then maybe some of us would have went a bit easier on them as well. Point is, nothing lasts forever and much can change in tennis in just one year.

[dudeski]

Originally Posted by namelessone

I hope he is lying otherwise he has some major delusions. Playing with two second serves, getting 4 BALLS past Fed in 15 games and doing all this from the first row is playing good? Or let me rephrase that, "not that bad".





Let me put it this way, Nadal had something to come back unlike yesterday with and Fed worked more to get that first set than he did in the whole encounter on Tuesday. I don't think he broke a sweat tbh. Even if Fed did give an opening, Nadal couldn't have taken it since he was in the first row most of the time and serving powderpuffs.



Bingo.

Yes Nadal didn't try anything at all in that 33 stroke rally that ended in 1st break of serve for Federer.

[namelessone]

Originally Posted by zagor

Yes but people have a tendency to form longterm conclusions based on current results(it's just human nature).

Nadal was rarely that brilliant post USO in any year basically, he always had an odd loss or two which didn't stop him from coming back strongly next year.

On the whole this was still a good year for Nadal, we'll see what the next year will bring.

So having a new nemesis that owns you on all surfaces and having old foes like Murray and Fed bagel you while watching your game go down the drain in all kind of ways is considered good?

I'd hate to think what a bad year is for Nadal.

[sunny_cali]

Originally Posted by namelessone

To me this is not a issue of playing great or not, it's playing plain bad. I would struggle to call Nadal mediocre yesterday. I got the same vibe in Miami 2011 encounter about Fed with his 30 UE extravaganza.

No two can be at their best at the same time, when talking about top players, they influence one another in a match. But they can be near their supposed top level, with ups and downs.

Nadal yesterday(and in the fish match) was BAD. No other way to put it. I already sad why. Fed was subpar in certain matches against Nadal, otherwise he wouldn't have lost them. Ditto for Nadal. They have a interesting matchup.

But Nadal wasn't subpar yesterday, he was a non-factor, that's the problem. I get some top 50 guy to play from the first row and loop balls at the service line against Fed and we get the same result, that guy would probably play a bit better even. But Nadal is a guy with 10 slams and he comes up with this?!
I know a guy who is a tennis coach who said that Nadal has barely looked like a top 30 player in the last months and he knows far more than me about this sport.

Fair enough. I would disagree that Rafa was mediocre or a non-factor. That seems too harsh (and with the intent of taking away credit from Fed). He was certainly nowhere near his best.

He was fine until the 30+ stroke rally, at 2-3 0-40, when in what is a rarity when these two play, Fed out-Nadaled him. This seems to have had a bigger effect on Rafa than it should have. Perhaps something to do with his low-confidence as a result of the shellacking that Djoker handed out to him all year.

[ImAGrinch]

Originally Posted by cc0509

but Nadal looks like crap to me and has not looked great for the past 8 months. His style of grinding play is finally catching up with him at least that is how it appears to me.

If it wasn't for Djokovic, Nadal would've had a very successful year. I like how every time Nadal has a bad day it is the end for him. Everyone thought he was done in 2009 and look at what happened in 2010. The guy is 25 years old. Unless he has some permanent injury that nobody knows about, he's not physically on the decline. Doesn't anybody learn from the past?

[zagor]

Originally Posted by abmk

fed actually returned crappily in the first 2 sets in last year's final. But in the first set, he was so hot off the ground that it didn't really matter. But his crappy returning along with a bad service game cost him the second.

In the 3rd , he didn't really play that well off the ground as the first, but returned much better, hence 6-1 .

Nadal did play better in the last year finals, but he didn't play badly this year. He played ok, but just got overwhelmed ..

fed in yesterday's match was better than the one in the finals last year

Mostly agree, last year's final's 1st set was very similar to the first set in 2007, in both of those matches Fed started returning badly, Nadal had some chances in the middle of the 1st set, Fed served himself out of trouble and broke Nadal afterwards. This year already in the first set Fed was getting a lot of balls into play.

What I found different in their match this year compared to last year was as you already said ROS and the fact that Fed kept his gas on the pedal and didn't have a 2nd set letdown, now Nadal wouldn't have been bageled if he played better but this time Fed's level didn't dip in the 2nd set like it did last year.

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by zagor

Yes but people have a tendency to form longterm conclusions based on current results(it's just human nature).

Nadal was rarely that brilliant post USO in any year basically, he always had an odd loss or two which didn't stop him from coming back strongly next year.

On the whole this was still a good year for Nadal, we'll see what the next year will bring.

I agree with you that people have a tendency to predict future results based on one match and that is silly to me.

It does howver look to me like Federer has been working harder on his faults and trying to improve them even at age 30. Fed's BH has definitely improved. On the other hand, Nadal looks like he has been trying to improve nothing.

We will see what transpires in 2012 though as things can change quickly.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by namelessone

So having a new nemesis that owns you on all surfaces and having old foes like Murray and Fed bagel you while watching your game go down the drain in all kind of ways is considered good?

I'd hate to think what a bad year is for Nadal.

He won a slam and reached 3 slam finals, that alone makes it a good year.

Bad year for Nadal is the same as bad year for Fed-> The year in which they don't win a slam.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by cc0509

The fact is Nadal has looked terrible in the past 8 months. To me he has declined and has done nothing to fix any problem which will enable him to beat Djokovic in the future.

I think he needs a coaching change and unfortunately I think he is too stubborn and loyal to make it.

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by ImAGrinch

If it wasn't for Djokovic, Nadal would've had a very successful year. I like how every time Nadal has a bad day it is the end for him. Everyone thought he was done in 2009 and look at what happened in 2010. The guy is 25 years old. Unless he has some permanent injury that nobody knows about, he's not physically on the decline. Doesn't anybody learn from the past?

Age in years is not the whole picture. Nadal is 25 but he has been playing on the tour and winning big since he was 17. Add to that his grinding style and it is miles on tour that is more important than actual age. Nadal just looks a step slower to me and for him that is bad news as without his defense Nadal can't be Nadal. I don't agree with you that Nadal is not physically on the decline as I think he is starting.

Let's see what happens in 2012 though.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by zagor

Mostly agree, last year's final's 1st set was very similar to the first set in 2007, in both of those matches Nadal had some chances in the middle of the 1st set, Fed served himself out of trouble and broke Nadal afterwards.

similar in that way yes, but I think rafa was more or less even in terms of level in the 2007 final 1st set till 4 all - actually I'd say slightly better, ground game wise .....

In the 2010 final first set, I thought federer was clearly the better player the way, both off the serve and ground game wise ... he hit 17 winners to 3 winners from rafa IIRC ... the main reason for the set being 'close' was fed not returning well

Originally Posted by zagor

What I found different in their match this year compared to last year was as you already said ROS and the fact that Fed kept his gas on the pedal and didn't have a 2nd set letdown, now Nadal wouldn't have been bageled if he played better but this time Fed's level didn't dip in the 2nd set like it did last year.

true ...

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by namelessone

So having a new nemesis that owns you on all surfaces and having old foes like Murray and Fed bagel you while watching your game go down the drain in all kind of ways is considered good?

I'd hate to think what a bad year is for Nadal.

2011 was Nadal's 3 best season in his career (after 2010 and 2008 ) and if you take away Djokovic 2011 would actually be Nadal's best year by some margin.