Points won after Shanghai Masters for the top 4

[vernonbc]

You Fed KAD's are hilarious. He wins one tournament and you're off into lala land. He's not going to get #2 from Rafa, he'll be lucky to hang on to #3. In 2011 and 2012 Fed and Rafa played five times and Fed won once indoors. Rafa beat him twice on clay and twice on hard. Rafa played Murray five times and beat him four, on clay, hard and grass. He played Delpo three times and beat him three times, on clay, hard and grass. If anything, Rafa's playing even better this year than last and he'll likely get to #1 sooner rather than later. But dream on.

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Vernonbc, I thought you said that we were not supposed to bash Fed or praise Nadal on these boards? I see you've done both here

BTW I suggested the same things as you on another board this past weekend and you should have seen the flames I was getting from Fed fans. All I said was that this indoor tournament was about as meaningful as the WTF 2011 victory, given that Rafa demolished Fed in AO 2012 SF anyway, and the Fed KAD's were labeling me as a "hater" lol. I'm not a hater, I'm just sharing my ace ATP analysis. Fed beating up on 30-year-old mentally unstable Denko and a sadly far-from-prime Delpo, whom he owns in the H2H anyway, means nothing until I see what he does in Dubai against Twilight and Djoker, to say nothing of Nadull, but Fed fans acted like I was totally out of line to put this tournament in the context of the future lol. As far as I know, there aren't any Indoor Slams and there won't be any in the future, at least not until November's Basel Slam rolls around

[merlinpinpin]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

Number of tournaments played since Shanghai:
1. Federer - 6
2. Djokovic - 4
3. Nadal - 3
4. Murray - 4

It's not surprising Federer has the most points.

Actually, Nadal has got 4 results counted, not 3 (Davis Cup is there, too). But that's a moot point anyway, as he could have played a dozen tournaments since Shanghai had he wanted to.

Now, as you obviously want to change the way of looking at this so that it reflects better on Rafa, you can also work out how many points each player won per tournament during this period. And--surprise, surprise--the ranking is the same (although Djokovic closes part of the gap with Federer, which is quite normal with his AO win):

1. Federer: 718
2. Djokovic: 640
3. Nadal: 452
4. Murray: 287

So, chill out. This thread is not a dig at Nadal's (non-existent) GOAT legacy, just another, fun way of looking at rankings for people who think/hope that Federer may have a chance of sneaking out a couple of weeks at #1 until October should things go his way...

[vernonbc]

Originally Posted by merlinpinpin

Now, as you obviously want to change the way of looking at this so that it reflects better on Rafa, you can also work out how many points each player won per tournament during this period. And--surprise, surprise--the ranking is the same (although Djokovic closes part of the gap with Federer, which is quite normal with his AO win):

1. Federer: 718
2. Djokovic: 640
3. Nadal: 452
4. Murray: 287

So, chill out. This thread is not a dig at Nadal's (non-existent) GOAT legacy, just another, fun way of looking at rankings for people who think/hope that Federer may have a chance of sneaking out a couple of weeks at #1 until October should things go his way...

No, I'm not trying to change anybody's way of looking at things. Just trying to bring a little bit of perspective to the Fed KAD's but that's an exercise in futility at the best of times.

[vernonbc]

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

Vernonbc, I thought you said that we were not supposed to bash Fed or praise Nadal on these boards? I see you've done both here

Didn't say you weren't supposed to. Just said you'd get trolled if you did either.

Not surprised another board got their knickers in a knot too. A tennis reporter commented once that Fed fans were notorious for their reaction if anything was said about him. They are inundated with emails and tweets if they happen to write anything less than unbridled praise about Fed.

[merlinpinpin]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

No, I'm not trying to change anybody's way of looking at things. Just trying to bring a little bit of perspective to the Fed KAD's but that's an exercise in futility at the best of times.

I don't think you are, as you're doing exactly the same with Nadal (ie "soon back to #1") in your previous post. But the thing is, at this point, due to the match-up issue (a new problem for Nadal), the only way he's going to get back to #1 is if Djokovic 2.0 suddenly disappears (which is possible, I grant you that). But barring that, as strange as it seems, Federer may actually have a better chance than Nadal of snatching the #1 spot for a couple of weeks. We'll know more about this after Miami, as there is a big chunk of points to award until then.

Two other things: it's not one tournament, it's four out of six (and he had more than a fair chance of winning Doha had he not been forced to retire). Also, you reminded us of Nadal's results against Federer, Murray, and Del Potro last year. Is it me, or did you forget to also mention his results against Djokovic (who is the player he should be aiming to beat if he's to reclaim the #1 spot)?

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

You Fed KAD's are hilarious. He wins one tournament and you're off into lala land.

Or Federer looses a couple of matches after a 5 month winning streak and the Fed bashers are off into...

[joeri888]

The healthy Federer that dispatched Davydenko 6-2 6-2 in Doha, would have been a lock to beat Tsonga and Monfils.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

You Fed KAD's are hilarious. He wins one tournament and you're off into lala land. He's not going to get #2 from Rafa, he'll be lucky to hang on to #3. In 2011 and 2012 Fed and Rafa played five times and Fed won once indoors. Rafa beat him twice on clay and twice on hard. Rafa played Murray five times and beat him four, on clay, hard and grass. He played Delpo three times and beat him three times, on clay, hard and grass. If anything, Rafa's playing even better this year than last and he'll likely get to #1 sooner rather than later. But dream on.

I didn't make this thread after Rotterdam, if you care to notice. He won 4 of his last 6 singles tournaments (Basel, Paris Masters, WTF, Rotterdam) and reached the SF of the other 2 (Doha where he withdrew and AO), technically he's the best player since October 2011.

So Hafa better deliver or Federer will be there to take the no 2 spot. Also it would be an utter joke if Nadal got back to no 1 in the world losing 7 times in a row to Djokovic and counting of course.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

Vernonbc, I thought you said that we were not supposed to bash Fed or praise Nadal on these boards? I see you've done both here

BTW I suggested the same things as you on another board this past weekend and you should have seen the flames I was getting from Fed fans. All I said was that this indoor tournament was about as meaningful as the WTF 2011 victory, given that Rafa demolished Fed in AO 2012 SF anyway, and the Fed KAD's were labeling me as a "hater" lol. I'm not a hater, I'm just sharing my ace ATP analysis. Fed beating up on 30-year-old mentally unstable Denko and a sadly far-from-prime Delpo, whom he owns in the H2H anyway, means nothing until I see what he does in Dubai against Twilight and Djoker, to say nothing of Nadull, but Fed fans acted like I was totally out of line to put this tournament in the context of the future lol. As far as I know, there aren't any Indoor Slams and there won't be any in the future, at least not until November's Basel Slam rolls around

Another one who needs a slap in the face... I always have my hands full here.

First of all if Nadal "demolished" Federer at the 2012 AO what did Federer do to Nadal in the WTF, then (in case you forgot the final score was 6-3 6-0)?

As for Nadal and Djokovic, nobody said they aren't better than Federer and they well should be at 24-25 compared to a 30-year old guy years past his prime. The problem is that Federer is still good enough to take the rest of the tour down so both Nadal and Djokovic still have to go out and beat him in actual matches to prevent him from going up the rankings. Last time I checked the ATP didn't take away Federer's 3000 points from the 3 indoor tournaments he won at the end of 2011 caused by "nobody caring". He's got over 4000 points won since October 2011, more than Djokovic and Nadal combined so both of them better get their as**s on court and work for their ranking positions. Especially Nadal cause if his ranking drops to no 3 it's goodbye losing finals to Djokovic, welcome losing in the semis to Djokovic, Fed on the other hand has an open road to the finals and a crack at Djokovic in the championship match.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by merlinpinpin

I don't think you are, as you're doing exactly the same with Nadal (ie "soon back to #1") in your previous post. But the thing is, at this point, due to the match-up issue (a new problem for Nadal), the only way he's going to get back to #1 is if Djokovic 2.0 suddenly disappears (which is possible, I grant you that). But barring that, as strange as it seems, Federer may actually have a better chance than Nadal of snatching the #1 spot for a couple of weeks. We'll know more about this after Miami, as there is a big chunk of points to award until then.

Two other things: it's not one tournament, it's four out of six (and he had more than a fair chance of winning Doha had he not been forced to retire). Also, you reminded us of Nadal's results against Federer, Murray, and Del Potro last year. Is it me, or did you forget to also mention his results against Djokovic (who is the player he should be aiming to beat if he's to reclaim the #1 spot)?

Lol, "putting in perspective". Federer's chances of getting to no 2 are twice as big as Nadal's chances of getting to no 1, that's some perspective for vernonbc.

[Juan Ma Del Pony]

Originally Posted by tennis_pro

Another one who needs a slap in the face... I always have my hands full here.

Wow that was incredibly rude of you. I don't approve of violence of any kind and I don't take kindly to being told that I must be "slap[ped] in the face."

As for Nadal and Djokovic getting their asses on court and working for their rankings, all I have to say to that is LOLOLOLOLOL. They just worked for 6 hours last month producing one of the best 5-set GS finals we've seen in a long time. I mean you probably have to go back to USO '09 Del Potro d. Federer in 5 sets to see a match of that drama and intensity.

And maybe "demolish" was too strong a word for Nadal d. Federer in 4 sets at the AO SF, but it underscores my point that Fed's indoor results from the end of 2011 were pretty meaningless when it came to crunch time at the Slams.

So no, I don't want the ATP to take away Fed's 3000 indoor points from the end of 2011, but it would be nice if people took these most recent 500 indoor points that Fed's earned with a grain of salt, at least until we see what he does in Dubai/IW/Miami against the Big 4.

[Eternity]

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

Wow that was incredibly rude of you. I don't approve of violence of any kind and I don't take kindly to being told that I must be "slap[ped] in the face."

As for Nadal and Djokovic getting their asses on court and working for their rankings, all I have to say to that is LOLOLOLOLOL. They just worked for 6 hours last month producing one of the best 5-set GS finals we've seen in a long time. I mean you probably have to go back to USO '09 Del Potro d. Federer in 5 sets to see a match of that drama and intensity.

And maybe "demolish" was too strong a word for Nadal d. Federer in 4 sets at the AO SF, but it underscores my point that Fed's indoor results from the end of 2011 were pretty meaningless when it came to crunch time at the Slams.

So no, I don't want the ATP to take away Fed's 3000 indoor points from the end of 2011, but it would be nice if people took these most recent 500 indoor points that Fed's earned with a grain of salt, at least until we see what he does in Dubai/IW/Miami against the Big 4.

I agree, especially with what happened at the AO with Fed being favoured to make the final even after Rafa got over that QF hurdle that's stopped him the last 2 yrs. I thought at the end of last yr Fed could move up if Novak or Rafa faltered but that doesn't appear to be happening.

Also as is being discussed in another thread with all this talk of Fed getting to no. 2 he could just as likely fall to no. 4.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

As for Nadal and Djokovic getting their asses on court and working for their rankings, all I have to say to that is LOLOLOLOLOL. They just worked for 6 hours last month producing one of the best 5-set GS finals we've seen in a long time. I mean you probably have to go back to USO '09 Del Potro d. Federer in 5 sets to see a match of that drama and intensity.

Yea lololol, Djokovic hasn't played since and Nadal is taking February off and will probably need a few matches to get in shape after a few weeks off. Like 1 match is the deciding factor in this case...it's not my fault that Djokovic and Nadal are unable to hit winners or won't dare to attack the net thus finish the points quicker.

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

And maybe "demolish" was too strong a word for Nadal d. Federer in 4 sets at the AO SF, but it underscores my point that Fed's indoor results from the end of 2011 were pretty meaningless when it came to crunch time at the Slams.

That's true but from the 20000 ranking points one can gain during a season 12000 are from tour tournaments (non-slam tournaments).

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by merlinpinpin

I don't think you are, as you're doing exactly the same with Nadal (ie "soon back to #1") in your previous post. But the thing is, at this point, due to the match-up issue (a new problem for Nadal), the only way he's going to get back to #1 is if Djokovic 2.0 suddenly disappears (which is possible, I grant you that). But barring that, as strange as it seems, Federer may actually have a better chance than Nadal of snatching the #1 spot for a couple of weeks. We'll know more about this after Miami, as there is a big chunk of points to award until then.

Two other things: it's not one tournament, it's four out of six (and he had more than a fair chance of winning Doha had he not been forced to retire). Also, you reminded us of Nadal's results against Federer, Murray, and Del Potro last year. Is it me, or did you forget to also mention his results against Djokovic (who is the player he should be aiming to beat if he's to reclaim the #1 spot)?

LOL! I assure you vernon's omission of Djokovic was no accident. The reality is Djokovic is the only player Nadal needs to focus on and figure out how to beat if Nadal wants the number one spot back. All of the other wins over Federer, Murray, Del Po, etc. mean little or nothing. He needs to beat Djokovic many times to get to the number one spot because as long as Djokovic is winning those slams, Nadal has no shot.

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by Juan Ma Del Pony

Wow that was incredibly rude of you. I don't approve of violence of any kind and I don't take kindly to being told that I must be "slap[ped] in the face."

As for Nadal and Djokovic getting their asses on court and working for their rankings, all I have to say to that is LOLOLOLOLOL. They just worked for 6 hours last month producing one of the best 5-set GS finals we've seen in a long time. I mean you probably have to go back to USO '09 Del Potro d. Federer in 5 sets to see a match of that drama and intensity.

And maybe "demolish" was too strong a word for Nadal d. Federer in 4 sets at the AO SF, but it underscores my point that Fed's indoor results from the end of 2011 were pretty meaningless when it came to crunch time at the Slams.

So no, I don't want the ATP to take away Fed's 3000 indoor points from the end of 2011, but it would be nice if people took these most recent 500 indoor points that Fed's earned with a grain of salt, at least until we see what he does in Dubai/IW/Miami against the Big 4.

You are no doubt correct about that. Fed needs to beat Nadal and Djokovic and perhaps Murray for his results to really mean anything and for Fed to make any headway, just as Nadal has to beat Djokovic.

[FlashFlare11]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

You Fed KAD's are hilarious. He wins one tournament and you're off into lala land. He's not going to get #2 from Rafa, he'll be lucky to hang on to #3. In 2011 and 2012 Fed and Rafa played five times and Fed won once indoors. Rafa beat him twice on clay and twice on hard. Rafa played Murray five times and beat him four, on clay, hard and grass. He played Delpo three times and beat him three times, on clay, hard and grass. If anything, Rafa's playing even better this year than last and he'll likely get to #1 sooner rather than later. But dream on.

You? The biggest Nadal worshipper on this board is trying to call out other "worshippers?" Don't you viciously go after anyone who dares to say a word against Nadal? Hypocrisy at its finest.

You forgot to mention that Nadal lost to Djokovic 7 consecutive times. At least Federer can win against Nadal, which, at present, would make Federer a more worthy No. 2 than Nadal a No. 1. Federer is closing the gap between he and Nadal in points earned this season. That is what determines the year-end rankings.

Indoors may not be a real condition for you, but I suppose you must understand that confidence is a huge part of the game (you especially, being a supporter of the biggest confidence-based player). But please, if Nadal loses early in Indian Wells, please let us know that he was "low on confidence."

Originally Posted by vernonbc

Didn't say you weren't supposed to. Just said you'd get trolled if you did either.

Not surprised another board got their knickers in a knot too. A tennis reporter commented once that Fed fans were notorious for their reaction if anything was said about him. They are inundated with emails and tweets if they happen to write anything less than unbridled praise about Fed.

Wow...textbook passive-aggressiveness >.> just wanted to point that out.

Good luck to all the top 4. I'm rooting for Fed and hope to see some good matches from everyone in the coming tournaments

[Agassifan]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

You Fed KAD's are hilarious. He wins one tournament and you're off into lala land. He's not going to get #2 from Rafa, he'll be lucky to hang on to #3. In 2011 and 2012 Fed and Rafa played five times and Fed won once indoors. Rafa beat him twice on clay and twice on hard. Rafa played Murray five times and beat him four, on clay, hard and grass. He played Delpo three times and beat him three times, on clay, hard and grass. If anything, Rafa's playing even better this year than last and he'll likely get to #1 sooner rather than later. But dream on.

LOLLOLOLOL. Your post might have made sense if you didn't shoot yourself in the foot with the last sentence. Rafa was beaten like a drum 7 consecutive times and yet can make the #1?

[vernonbc]

Originally Posted by Agassifan

LOLLOLOLOL. Your post might have made sense if you didn't shoot yourself in the foot with the last sentence. Rafa was beaten like a drum 7 consecutive times and yet can make the #1?

Sure can. Rafa has upside but Djokovic has nowhere to go but down as he has to win as much as he did last year just to maintain his points. I don't think he'll go undefeated for six months again. If he does, more power to him but the odds are greater that Rafa will win a few and, yes, get back to #1.