Bjorn Borg is the GOAT

[borg number one]

Originally Posted by Atherton2003

Very good post - and I think Fed only won the FO cause he didn't have to face Nadal. Fed is great - but he has one glitch in his resume - he was never able to figure out his chief rival - Nadal.

Thank you. Nadal is a great clay courter, and so was Bjorn Borg. You could argue that Federer would have won more FO titles had it not been for Nadal, but you can make that argument for other players as well. You still have to win that final match, even without a tough rival facing you. I agree though, every player has pluses and minuses, including Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Borg, and perhaps Laver as well. Nadal does have a very good record versus Federer, on every surface besides indoors. Federer has only slight edge over Nadal on hard courts (head to head).

[borg number one]

Originally Posted by big ted

thats right mecirs racquet was a midsize wood that may or may have not been reinforced with graphite/fiberglass. but borgs standard size racquet (among other pros) used frames that were reinforced with those materials as well if im not mistaken..

I'm not certain, but many say that Borg played simply played with a Donnay Allwood PJ, even when he switched to the Donnay Borg Pro in 1980. Donnay Borg Pros were manufactured with some fiberglass reinforcement. His Bancroft Bjorn Borg frames also played supposedly just like the Donnay Allwood. He used those in the U.S. through 1979. Here is an article on Borg's racquets. The already heavy wood frames were reinforced with a second ply of wood to help support 80+ pounds of tension.

http://www.80s-tennis.com/pages/borg-anecdote-jose.html

Bjorn Borg used to prepare his matches meticulously just as his own coach, Lennart Bergelin, did. This was part of a ritual which was essential to the player’s mental preparation and, more generally, which helped him focus on tennis. This also explained why Bjorn Borg imposed a multitude of frame specifications on Donnay. Realising that Bjorn Borg was no easy man to please, André Donnay and Guy Pignolet carefully selected a qualified worker who would be extremely rigorous and committed, given the responsibilities Donnay was about to take on. Quite surprisingly, they chose a young and relatively inexperienced carpenter by the name of José Thiry. José, who was 24 years old at the time, was very tall (by Couvin standards!) standing at 1 metre 80 and André Donnay used to call him “Tall Boy”. José quickly gained the recognition of the Donnay family, for he was regularly doing woodwork for them, after working hours, and even acted as their private driver at times.

José therefore started to customise Bjorn Borg’s rackets in 1975. Two series of 400 frames were produced annually according to Bjorn’s specifications of wood quality, weight (415gr), length and balance. These frames had to be reinforced by adding one additional ply of wood to cope with the extreme string tension of 28/35 kg. Out of the special issue, José would typically select the best 25 rackets which would then be stored for six months before delivery. Bjorn Borg realised that, like special Belgian beers, wood is a living material that delivers its best mechanical performance after a complete drying period.

José exercised the greatest care when he applied the English Fairway branded grip. José carefully selected the 1.7 mm leather grip width. Two grips were then applied side by side along a 4 5/8 handle up to 25 cm (1) This was a particularly painful exercise, as the leather had to be stretched tightly to provide Bjorn Borg with the ideal grip size. Over time, José’s index finger got deformed and a lump grew on the joint of one of his fingers.

See Borg playing with the Borg Pro versus Lendl and his graphite frame in Jan. 1981.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuiEzBb7hk (imagine these guys hitting with the latest frames here!)

(Borg at Monte Carlo)

(Donnay Allwood)



(Bancroft Bjorn Borg) Both the Donnay and Bancroft frames were very well made, with the choicest wood and great craftsmanship involved.

[Atherton2003]

Borg was so good looking back then.

[FedererGlides]

This thread has turned into nostalgic nonsense. It is supposed to be a debate about Borg's achievements as a tennis player and whether or not he is the greatest. Not a place for old people to talk about the "good old days". Fact is Borg never won the US Open and was clearly not comfortable under the bright lights of New York and the pro Connors crowd. This calls into question his mental toughness. Compare this to Federer who had no problems dealing with the very hostile pro Agassi crowd in the 2005 US Open final. Also Federer didn't quit the game after Nadal beat him at the 2008 US Open final. He stayed and kept trying to win more slams. Borg quit after Mcenroe started beating him in big slam finals.

[FedererGlides]

Originally Posted by FedererGlides

This thread has turned into nostalgic nonsense. It is supposed to be a debate about Borg's achievements as a tennis player and whether or not he is the greatest. Not a place for old people to talk about the "good old days". Fact is Borg never won the US Open and was clearly not comfortable under the bright lights of New York and the pro Connors crowd. This calls into question his mental toughness. Compare this to Federer who had no problems dealing with the very hostile pro Agassi crowd in the 2005 US Open final. Also Federer didn't quit the game after Nadal beat him at the 2008 US Open final. He stayed and kept trying to win more slams. Borg quit after Mcenroe started beating him in big slam finals.

correction: I mean to say 2008 Wimbledon final, not 2008 US Open final.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by forehand_dude

Did you know that Borg won 11 majors even though he retired at age 26 and only played the AO once? If he had played until age 30 and played all the AO's, he easily would have won 16 majors, and probably 20.

I think we've all gotten caught up in the excitement of watching Federer at his peak, but there is a strong case for Sampras and Nadal being his equal, and Borg being better.

Great story.

He would maybe win another 1-3 French Opens but 3 is already a stretch.
Wimbledon - Mc had his number, he won Wimbledon in 1983, 1984 and probably would've won in 1982 if he had motivation. No more Wimbledons for Borg. Maybe 1 at most.
US Open - as far as I remember both Mac and Jimbo reached the semis/finals on a consistent basis for another 4-5 years. No US Opens for Borg.

I maxed out Borg's capabilities. Had he continued, he would've finished with 15 majors AT MOST, 3 more FO's and another Wimbledon. May I ask where did you find another 5 majors? (for a total of 20?)

[FedererGlides]

Also if you want to talk about impact and bringing fans to the game, then I can bring Federer's beautiful aesthically pleasing style of play into the equation. Borg's impact was more to do with his rock star image than the brilliance of his game. Mcenroe's style of play was much better to watch than Borg's style.

Mcenroe was an artist, Borg was great but he was not an artist on the court. A lot of people started watching tennis because of Federer, not because of his image, but because the brilliance of his game made a tennis fan out of people who previously were not tennis fans. Also Federer brought a lot of people back to tennis who missed that elegant style of play. To bring so many fans to the game with your style of play(Federer) is more admirable than bringing fans to the game because of your image(Borg). Borg's actual game was not as brilliant as his rock star image would suggest. Mcenroe had a rock star image and his game lived up to his image. In fact Mcenroe's brilliant artistic game exceeded his own rock star image.

[scineram]

A GOAT doesn't run away after a few losses.

[FedererGlides]

Originally Posted by scineram

A GOAT doesn't run away after a few losses.

Exactly, and a GOAT doesn't become mentally weak under the bright lights of New York against a hostile pro Connors crowd. A GOAT handles the bright lights of New York and deals with the hostile pro Agassi crowd like Federer did in the 2005 US Open final. Borg had a big winning record over Connors, but just could not beat him at the US Open. This suggests a weakness of mind and this explains why he quit the game after losing a few finals to Mcenroe.

[urban]

What hostile crowd for Borg? Connors wasn't the darling of New York, until very late in his career, and Borg had always at least the same crowd support as Connors or Mac. I saw the Federer vs. Agassi match, when old Agassi was on his last legs after surviving many five-setters before, and there was no hostile crowd for Federer, too. Borg once faced a hostile crowd, that was 1978 in the Foro Italico in the final vs. Panatta, when the Italian mob showered him with coins. He never again went to Rome, but he won the match against Panatta in five. So long mental weakness. That he finished his career, because he flew McEnroe, is a myth. His record against Mac in ATP matches was 7-7, all on fast surfaces bar one match on clay. Looks much better than some other goats head to head.

[Nathaniel_Near]

I wonder how Borg would have done had he carried on and found his spirit again. I think he might have got that elusive US Open one year, against either Connors or McEnroe, but with how he was more or less figuring out Connors, his chances would have been better against him, probably. He would have been a contender at RG and Wimbledon for some time, methinks, making regular semifinal and final appearances there, and converting some of those chances into Major wins. I'm guessing he still wouldn't have really bothered with the AO.

[Nathaniel_Near]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4seeIj2hEk0

Borg comes out with a sensational quote in this video!

'You know, I've never been tired in a tennis match.'

[DolgoSantoro]

I have Borg as the third best player of all time, but there are arguments to put him higher or lower

[tudwell]

Originally Posted by accidental

Honestly, that's what I call a cool story bro. Such a riveting tale, I honestly copy and pasted it to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a usb drive, drove to the bank, put the usb drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this cool story to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a cool story should look and sound like...not like the stories your generation tells."

I totally missed this back in January.

[Chillaxer]

Originally Posted by forehand_dude

Did you know that Borg won 11 majors even though he retired at age 26 and only played the AO once? If he had played until age 30 and played all the AO's, he easily would have won 16 majors, and probably 20.

I think we've all gotten caught up in the excitement of watching Federer at his peak, but there is a strong case for Sampras and Nadal being his equal, and Borg being better.

But saying he would have won is hypothetical. Part of being GOAT is commitment and still havgin the win to win, so I think it's unfair to say to players who have gone past him that he 'would have' done more-it's not the point and impossible to know.

[forzamilan90]

A legend and really up there with the best ever, but he's no GOAT...there's better candidates and one really clear cut favorite for that title

[krosero]

Originally Posted by FedererGlides

Borg had a big winning record over Connors, but just could not beat him at the US Open.

Where'd you get this from?

[timnz]

Originally Posted by urban

That he finished his career, because he flew McEnroe, is a myth. His record against Mac in ATP matches was 7-7, all on fast surfaces bar one match on clay. Looks much better than some other goats head to head.

I know that borg and mcenroe didn't play any official matches on clay

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/...=M047&oId=B058

But was there an unofficial match on clay? If so, i'd be interested in details. In response to those people who go on endlessly about the federer nadal h2h not taking into account surfaces, i would say, what if borg mcenroe had half their matches on clay, instead of zero, what they still have a 7 all head to head? Surface is everything when it comes to head to head.

[TomT]

Borg is, in some ways, my favorite player of all time. His popularity had a lot to do my taking up tennis back in the 70s. I even tried to emulate his strokes and serve for a while. He remains, perhaps, the single most influential player and, perhaps more importantly, tennis personality wrt perhaps the most significant upsurge in tennis popularity. Lotta perhapses there.

Is he the greatest player of all time. Nah. At least not in my opinion.

[BauerAlmeida]

Originally Posted by DolgoSantoro

I have Borg as the third best player of all time, but there are arguments to put him higher or lower

This.

Although I have him as the second maybe. But if someone has him as the number there's nothing wrong at all with that. The fact that he retired at 25 years old and has 11 slams and 16 finals (playing 3 a year) is impressive. Nobody will ever come close to dominate Roland Garros and Wimbledon like that in a long time.