Interesting Read - Straw Dogs

[fitmom]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

I look at the past 40 major championships and who won them. There is no specific formula. So all or none of those people and organization may or may not ever produce a champion.(edited)

TennisCoachFLA, great post above! i would love to talk to you more about your thoughts - please see my profile for my contact info. i think the ParentingAces readers would be very interested in reading your comment.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Mike Agassi says that he would put Andre into baseball today because tennis has become so global that it is almost impossible to make it worth even attempting to produce a top player.

I peg Andre Agassi's chances of being a rich pro baseball player at somewhere close to zero, and much worse than his chances of being a top tennis player if he had come along a generation later. No offense to Mike Agassi, but he has no clue on that subject. Andre did not have the body type for pro baseball as it is played today, a power hitting game.

No offense, TCF, but I am getting really tired of seeing that quote. Mike Agassi knows a lot about what he did with Andre in tennis, but his experience raising pro baseball players is nil.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

I peg Andre Agassi's chances of being a rich pro baseball player at somewhere close to zero, and much worse than his chances of being a top tennis player if he had come along a generation later. No offense to Mike Agassi, but he has no clue on that subject. Andre did not have the body type for pro baseball as it is played today, a power hitting game.

No offense, TCF, but I am getting really tired of seeing that quote. Mike Agassi knows a lot about what he did with Andre in tennis, but his experience raising pro baseball players is nil.

And your experience in baseball is what??

I think you should stick to tennis where you seem to have useful things to say.

2011 and 2010 were both dubbed the "Year of the Pitcher" in major league baseball. I think Agassi had a fine body type for a middle infielder or a pitcher. Power hitters at those positions are the exception rather than the rule.

Here is a chart of runs scored in MLB in recent years, from Baseball America:


Team runs/game
2011
4.16

2010
4.38

2009
4.61

2008
4.65

2007
4.80

2006
4.86

2005
4.59

2004
4.81

2003
4.73

2002
4.62

2001
4.78

2000
5.14

[jigglypuff]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

And your experience in baseball is what??

I think you should stick to tennis where you seem to have useful things to say.

2011 and 2010 were both dubbed the "Year of the Pitcher" in major league baseball. I think Agassi had a fine body type for a middle infielder or a pitcher. Power hitters at those positions are the exception rather than the rule.

Here is a chart of runs scored in MLB in recent years, from Baseball America:


Team runs/game
2011
4.16

2010
4.38

2009
4.61

Or is it just the result of more stringent drug tests and stiffer penalties?

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by jigglypuff

Or is it just the result of more stringent drug tests and stiffer penalties?

Definitely that is part of why MLB has changed. There is a renewed emphasis on defense, pitching, and "smallball".

Kids with Agassi-type bodies out there, both tennis and baseball are options for you, I think.

[ClarkC]

How would you compare the odds of any athlete doing as well in one sport as he actually did in his chosen sport? Given a top player in tennis, soccer, baseball, basketball, or football, if that player had played another sport instead, what would be the likely outcome? Hint: When you made #1 in your chosen sport, there is nowhere to go but downhill.

Lots of top athletes in one sport could have been "pretty darn good" in another sport. But an athlete who is top 5 in the world in his chosen sport would be likely to finish lower, probably much lower, in a different sport.

I also think the example of Agassi is baloney. A player of Andre's talent would rise to the very top of American tennis today. He would have all the training advantages, wild cards, red carpets that American tennis could roll out for him. Even if I accepted the idea that the field is deeper and it is harder to be #1, where do you think he would end up? Outside the top 10? Lower than Roddick, Fish, et al.? Is there any reason to think that Andre would have a worse career than David Ferrer, who has cracked the top 5 on occasion and made millions? Don't think so.

Therefore, Andre would have made millions and would be the top American tennis player today, regardless of whether he would pass up Nadal, Federer, et al. He would be the premier endorsements earner among American tennis players, making much more in endorsements than in prize money, and easily in the world top 10.

Let's compare that to the totally unknown, hypothetical career he could have had in baseball, where he might have ended up a star second baseman making a fortune, or could have stalled out in AAA ball and not quite made the majors, or might not have even made it that far. How do we know he ever would have had the passion for baseball that is needed to be a great baseball player?

Mike Agassi is trying to make a point that he thinks the international competition is tougher today for American players than it used to be. Point well taken. However, his claim that he would have Andre play baseball instead is either (a) hyperbole to make a point; (b) totally ignorant nonsense; or (c) the proclamation of a very egotistical father who thinks he could have coached his son to elite greatness in any of several different sports if he had chosen a different path. I am not sure which is the real answer, so I won't say what is inside his head, but his claim is hogwash.

[justinmadison]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

Mike Agassi is trying to make a point that he thinks the international competition is tougher today for American players than it used to be. Point well taken. However, his claim that he would have Andre play baseball instead is either (a) hyperbole to make a point; (b) totally ignorant nonsense; or (c) the proclamation of a very egotistical father who thinks he could have coached his son to elite greatness in any of several different sports if he had chosen a different path.

I thought his point was the odds of a talented athletic kid with Agassi’s skills making a pro career in baseball are higher than the odds of the same kid making it in tennis. When you look at the competition and the money for both sports I think I agree with him.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by justinmadison

I thought his point was the odds of a talented athletic kid with Agassi’s skills making a pro career in baseball are higher than the odds of the same kid making it in tennis. When you look at the competition and the money for both sports I think I agree with him.

In that case, re-read the portion of my post you did not quote. We can never do the experiment two ways with one athlete, so we cannot prove the point one way or the other, but we can apply some common sense. Not only is there nowhere to go but downhill when you are able to be top 5 in the world in one sport and choose another one instead, but it is unlikely that you have equal passion for two different sports. Also, people are looking at primarily physical attributes. The mental toughness of a #1 tennis player is useful in any sport, but it is far more essential in tennis than in a team sport like baseball.

Physical skills, mental abilities, passion; none of the three make a perfect transfer from one sport to another. Anything less than a perfect transfer of the level of excellence in these three areas could take you from top 5 to just "pretty good" in the second sport.

[justinmadison]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

In that case, re-read the portion of my post you did not quote. We can never do the experiment two ways with one athlete, so we cannot prove the point one way or the other, but we can apply some common sense.
Anything less than a perfect transfer of the level of excellence in these three areas could take you from top 5 to just "pretty good" in the second sport.

I did not make myself clear. I completely agree that Agassi was so successful in tennis that it is obviously very unlikely he would have done better in baseball.

If you have a kid who looks like he has Agassi’s talents today which sport would have the best odds for him to make a professional career? Remember, you don’t have perfect information about his ability’s, mental toughness, decision making abilities, etc. You never have perfect information when you are making this choice. What is the best sport?

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by justinmadison

If you have a kid who looks like he has Agassi’s talents today which sport would have the best odds for him to make a professional career? Remember, you don’t have perfect information about his ability’s, mental toughness, decision making abilities, etc. You never have perfect information when you are making this choice. What is the best sport?

Very tough question. My approach: Expose him to several sports at a young age, and see what he gets passionate about. My experience is that some kids thrive on the mental challenges of tennis, but others decide that they really love team sports and really do not like individual sports. If the parents push the kid into the sport that the parent chooses, even though the personality of the kid does not suit the sport, I see nothing but trouble ahead.

[NLBwell]

Agassi could have gone from #1 in tennis to #300 in baseball and still have made a boatload of money.
If you take the best baseball player and he is only the #300 best player in tennis, he would be bankrupt on the futures tour.

[Dadof10s]

I think Mr. Agassi was making a generic point that over the last 20 years the number of competitors in tennis from around the world has increased so much. Back when Andre and his buddies were in Bradenton they were the top dogs and there were not tennis academies in most countries like there are today. USA players just have many more players to compete with who are working towards the pros than when Andre was a teenager. I do not think he was saying Andre would have been a great baseball player or not he was just saying that these days his slim chances in baseball would still be better than trying to make a top tennis player. I agree with his point that trying to make a kid into a top tennis player was very hard back when he did it but even way, way harder now.

[BSPE84]

Originally Posted by justinmadison

I did not make myself clear. I completely agree that Agassi was so successful in tennis that it is obviously very unlikely he would have done better in baseball.

If you have a kid who looks like he has Agassi’s talents today which sport would have the best odds for him to make a professional career? Remember, you don’t have perfect information about his ability’s, mental toughness, decision making abilities, etc. You never have perfect information when you are making this choice. What is the best sport?

My take of the Agassi quote was the same as yours. With the benefit of hindsight, the quote makes sense in light of the current competitive environment and consideration of risk/rewards; where it falls apart is the presumption that the required skillset is the same. Examples of failures that come to mind are MJ in MLB and Lendl as a golfer.

[Dadof10s]

Originally Posted by BSPE84

My take of the Agassi quote was the same as yours. With the benefit of hindsight, the quote makes sense in light of the current competitive environment and consideration of risk/rewards; where it falls apart is the presumption that the required skillset is the same. Examples of failures that come to mind are MJ in MLB and Lendl as a golfer.

Those examples are not that good because they did not play as much in those other sports. Once Jordan got to 10th grade he played lots of basketball and while he was at UNC played only basketball and in his Bulls years focused on basketball. He then tried baseball a sport that requires years of minor league year round training. Mike had Andre facing the dragon ball machine from age 5 and hitting 1 million tennis balls a year. Had that been a home made batting machine with the same insanity Mike applied to tennis and had he been shooting balls at Andre making him field them there is a very good chance Andre could have succeeded as a short stop or 2nd baseman or in some baseball capacity. A boy fielding and hitting a million baseballs a year and playing year round baseball and going to IMG baseball camp would have a decent chance. Mike Agassi went to extremes in training and probably could have produced a good enough contact hitter to get scouts interested.

[Orange]

Of course tennis players are more likely than football players to withdraw from high school in order to be home-schooled. Football players compete at school. Withdraw, and there is no place to compete. That has nothing to do with travel time or training time.

Baseball and basketball are similar to football regarding the home-schooling issue, although summer baseball and AAU are options for competition. Still, school results are crucial for college recruitment.

Contrast this with school tennis, where many top players don't play on school teams because doing so could interferes with training and tournament play, where school results don't contribute to national rankings and where school administrations sometimes treat the tennis program like an ugly stepchild.