Going deep vs Going wide

[LeeD]

Smart targets work well, unless the opponent knows them and camps out behind your target. Also, sometimes the opponent can affect you shots by hitting HIS shots.

[5263]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Smart targets work well, unless the opponent knows them and camps out behind your target. Also, sometimes the opponent can affect you shots by hitting HIS shots.

He can only camp out behind one of them lee, so for that you just hit to the other one of the two.
He would be really helping you out to camp on one of them, which would really open the court to the other one.

As to your other comment, that is the whole point of smart targets that have lots of margin for error. When his shots affect yours, it takes way more of that effect to make you miss. Even you would have to admit that you are more likely to miss due to his shots if YOUR shots are aimed for extreme depth or very close to the lines than you would be with these targets with good margin.

[5263]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

^^^ That sounds like a great idea, 5263. I will rent a ball machine and give this a workout.

I hope you got a chance to watch Ferrer today. I watched a few games before bed and he was like a clinic on the "Smart Targets" I described.
It was neat to watch a guy who really gets the most out of his game.

[10sLifer]

Originally Posted by luishcorreia

We have had a very interesting talk here on the forum about the importance of depth vs angles.

I hope this new post can shed a light on the matter.

http://online-tennis-blog.blogspot.c...oing-wide.html

Great article. You see some powerfull rally balss going down the middle. An angle begets an angle ofcourse!

[dominikk1985]

I think it also depends on the type of opponent you play. against slower footed players you should play wide a lot.

but against an angle specialist often hard and deep through the middle might be a good strategy because if you angle him he will use that to counter angle you even more which is exactly his game.

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I think it also depends on the type of opponent you play. against slower footed players you should play wide a lot.

but against an angle specialist often hard and deep through the middle might be a good strategy because if you angle him he will use that to counter angle you even more which is exactly his game.

A factor yes, but an even more important one is an individual's skill set. And the development of it. All of this theory is somewhat moot, if you can't work the ball in different ways. We are not playing wii tennis, with access to all the shots. Creating reasonable depth and directional control (without it coming at the expense of consistency) takes mucho practice, and creating angles is based on the ownership of higher spin rates. Point is, many would benefit more from developing a working knowledge of how to work the ball. This is the tough part.

[luishcorreia]

We have a really interesting talk going on here

Yesterday I saw Nadal playing Lopez at the Aus Open. If we watch carefully we can see that 80% (or more) of the times Nadal's ball is hit just beyond the service line and even sometimes before.

Its amazing the small number of times that they go for the lines.

So...why should we???

[thug the bunny]

Good topic. I spent a lot of time up until recently trying to get more depth on my rally shots. Then I started watching and tracking the depth on shots from pro matches. I was surprised to observe as 5263 and others have said here, that a great majority of pro rally balls land around the service line, just like mine! And all this time I thought this was inadequate. So now as long as I put good pace and spin on my shots I don't care if they land short, they will still keep my opp behind the BL. For variety though I will still hoist some up higher with spin and try to make it land deep, but it's a more tricky shot for me.

[luishcorreia]

Originally Posted by thug the bunny

Good topic. I spent a lot of time up until recently trying to get more depth on my rally shots. Then I started watching and tracking the depth on shots from pro matches. I was surprised to observe as 5263 and others have said here, that a great majority of pro rally balls land around the service line, just like mine! And all this time I thought this was inadequate. So now as long as I put good pace and spin on my shots I don't care if they land short, they will still keep my opp behind the BL. For variety though I will still hoist some up higher with spin and try to make it land deep, but it's a more tricky shot for me.

It has more to do with the point of contact of the opponent with the ball. You can hit the service line and be a short ball or you can hit the baseline, but because the ball has more speed and spin it has the same effect as a longer ball because the opponent will make contact with the ball far behind.... unless they can consistently hit the ball on the rise...

[thug the bunny]

Originally Posted by luishcorreia

It has more to do with the point of contact of the opponent with the ball. You can hit the service line and be a short ball or you can hit the baseline, but because the ball has more speed and spin it has the same effect as a longer ball because the opponent will make contact with the ball far behind.... unless they can consistently hit the ball on the rise...

Yes! Well stated..although the more loopy deep TS ball will kick higher.

[5263]

Originally Posted by luishcorreia

We have a really interesting talk going on here

Yesterday I saw Nadal playing Lopez at the Aus Open. If we watch carefully we can see that 80% (or more) of the times Nadal's ball is hit just beyond the service line and even sometimes before.

Its amazing the small number of times that they go for the lines.

So...why should we???

Yes, interesting talk here.
Thug, glad you are seeing how it can work for you!

So Luish, great point you recognize. If the pros that make it into the second week don't have to hit that close to the lines, why should we?
And as Bhupaes mentions, when they do hit one near the lines, often that could be using of that margin of error and not their intent, so probably even small number where they really target near a line.

Of course my point is to stay aggressive, but to choose other ways such as pace, spin, and hitting away from them to put them on the move.
If we become that angles specialist, then we have much less to fear from them! Not saying the angles must be that severe, but a specialist in knowing which angle when, and how.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

Yes, interesting talk here.
Thug, glad you are seeing how it can work for you!

So Luish, great point you recognize. If the pros that make it into the second week don't have to hit that close to the lines, why should we?
And as Bhupaes mentions, when they do hit one near the lines, often that could be using of that margin of error and not their intent, so probably even small number where they really target near a line.

Of course my point is to stay aggressive, but to choose other ways such as pace, spin, and hitting away from them to put them on the move.
If we become that angles specialist, then we have much less to fear from them! Not saying the angles must be that severe, but a specialist in knowing which angle when, and how.

So I counted djokos shots during a few games with Hewit. Djoko does in fact hit id say 75% of his shots near the service line. that is how he is working the point. with angles. Very interesting as I have thought about this exact same thing before. Why hit deep all the time? More chance for errors. Just hit hard with spin and shorter. I would imagine my UE rate would go way down and I would win more matches against tougher players. I will make a point of trying this. NOT going deep and substituting more short angle more often.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by arche3

So I counted djokos shots during a few games with Hewit. Djoko does in fact hit id say 75% of his shots near the service line. that is how he is working the point. with angles. Very interesting as I have thought about this exact same thing before. Why hit deep all the time? More chance for errors. Just hit hard with spin and shorter. I would imagine my UE rate would go way down and I would win more matches against tougher players. I will make a point of trying this. NOT going deep and substituting more short angle more often.

Your UE rate will only go down if you hit angles in high percentage situations. First, hitting wide is just as much of an UE as hitting long. Second, you can't hit much of an angle from the middle of the court, or from deep behind the baseline. If you go for short angles from those positions, you increase your risk of UE, and of giving your opponent a short shot to attack.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Your UE rate will only go down if you hit angles in high percentage situations. First, hitting wide is just as much of an UE as hitting long. Second, you can't hit much of an angle from the middle of the court, or from deep behind the baseline. If you go for short angles from those positions, you increase your risk of UE, and of giving your opponent a short shot to attack.

Sorry, but the above just doesn't show experience of working with this. No Way is hitting wider going to give you the same chance of UE as trying to hit very deep unless your topspin is pretty weak. With practice at working wider, you can keep a 3-5' margin for error, which is way easier to manage than depth for that same margin due to how strokes work. That's why most of the best Pros most often do it this way despite the conventional wisdom. It's what Dj changed to hit that next level.

Saying your angles are limited from way deep behind your BL is just filler that is not part of this convo, as of course any 3.0 knows that, but
from the middle of the court even near the BL, your angles will be effective as good or better due to certain advantages there. One of these advantages is having the choice to go with your better wing for the shot you pick. Another advantage you can stack on top of the last one, is that on a middle ball, you get to target your opponents weaker side (or avoid his stronger side). You can't say enough about how important stacking those 2 factors can be! Both "smart targets" discussed are still fully available from the middle of the court and the opponent can't know which one you will go with as well as there is some angle to both sides. Big advantage! When you hit an angle from one side or the other (not the middle) there is one big angle, but on the other side it's more a dtl with little to no angle. In this case you may not get to choose your better wing either.

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

So I counted djokos shots during a few games with Hewit. Djoko does in fact hit id say 75% of his shots near the service line. that is how he is working the point. with angles. Very interesting as I have thought about this exact same thing before. Why hit deep all the time? More chance for errors. Just hit hard with spin and shorter. I would imagine my UE rate would go way down and I would win more matches against tougher players. I will make a point of trying this. NOT going deep and substituting more short angle more often.

Great to see people charting and noticing what the best Pros are doing!

You have the key, hit good pace and spin, and your UE's will plummet. The biting TS will allow you to clear the net easy, get the ball back down quicker and make it kick on the bounce. If they try to attack these balls the will rack up the UEs big time or they are just way out of your league anyway, so nothing was going to help. Another cool thing about this is when you start cracking it hard at these safer targets, many of your shots will tend carry a bit, giving you a mix of depth at times without missing long. All THis will help you play tougher against players that may be too good for you as well and this is a type of win in my book.

[LeeD]

Why indeed?
Nadal is playing a baseliner DETERMINED to stay back. We might not be.
If Nadal does it, should we? Only if you want to win by outrunning your opponent. What if you can't?
Do we have Nadal's mental outlook? Some of us does, lots don't.
Short loopy high net clearance is the safest shot. If it's not attacked with a great approach shot, the pros can produce the dipping pass. THE PROS.
We are not pros.

[5263]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Why indeed?
Nadal is playing a baseliner DETERMINED to stay back. We might not be.
If Nadal does it, should we? Only if you want to win by outrunning your opponent. What if you can't?
Do we have Nadal's mental outlook? Some of us does, lots don't.
Short loopy high net clearance is the safest shot. If it's not attacked with a great approach shot, the pros can produce the dipping pass. THE PROS.
We are not pros.

No body is advocating loopy Topspin! If that is your version of TS, you are right, don't do this.
Also don't do it if you don't have the vision to see these lines. If you can't see them in your mind, it's likely your UEs will not improve. Some players really have a sense of "line of shot" paths and can use them. Some are blind to them.

But if you can crank up some pace with a biting topspin, then this will work well for BL or getting to net. These same "smart targets" work great for low skidding slices as well for approaching net this way, but if your slices are loopy sitters, of course they won't be effective either! See how that works?

[LeeD]

The modern topspin forehand is hit with extreme rackethead speed, very closed racketface, short in distance, looped well higher than the netcord, and depth is not a criteria, placement is. That is your "loopy" topspin forehand.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

Great to see people charting and noticing what the best Pros are doing!

You have the key, hit good pace and spin, and your UE's will plummet. The biting TS will allow you to clear the net easy, get the ball back down quicker and make it kick on the bounce. If they try to attack these balls the will rack up the UEs big time or they are just way out of your league anyway, so nothing was going to help. Another cool thing about this is when you start cracking it hard at these safer targets, many of your shots will tend carry a bit, giving you a mix of depth at times without missing long. All THis will help you play tougher against players that may be too good for you as well and this is a type of win in my book.

it is an interesting idea that I have at times thought about. Never hurts to try. Can't argue with results. If I win more then it works for me. Time will tell.

Also I can't deny what I am seeing how the pros are hitting. shorter with more angle. I am not a pro obviously but I am also far from a hack so I can actually try the same tactics because I can actually hit the shots if I choose.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by 5263

Sorry, but the above just doesn't show experience of working with this. No Way is hitting wider going to give you the same chance of UE as trying to hit very deep unless your topspin is pretty weak. With practice at working wider, you can keep a 3-5' margin for error, which is way easier to manage than depth for that same margin due to how strokes work. That's why most of the best Pros most often do it this way despite the conventional wisdom. It's what Dj changed to hit that next level.

Saying your angles are limited from way deep behind your BL is just filler that is not part of this convo, as of course any 3.0 knows that, but
from the middle of the court even near the BL, your angles will be effective as good or better due to certain advantages there. One of these advantages is having the choice to go with your better wing for the shot you pick. Another advantage you can stack on top of the last one, is that on a middle ball, you get to target your opponents weaker side (or avoid his stronger side). You can't say enough about how important stacking those 2 factors can be! Both "smart targets" discussed are still fully available from the middle of the court and the opponent can't know which one you will go with as well as there is some angle to both sides. Big advantage! When you hit an angle from one side or the other (not the middle) there is one big angle, but on the other side it's more a dtl with little to no angle. In this case you may not get to choose your better wing either.

Your comments would tend to indicate that you don't actually play tennis. If you try to hit an angle and you hit it 5 feet from the sideline, you are likely giving your opponent a short attackable ball. Further, the OP's link spoke specifically about your opponent hitting deep to prevent you from hitting angles. Either you didn't read the OP's link, or you didn't understand it. Perhaps you also missed the OP's post in which he agreed that he agreed with my premises. Clearly, his article is saying the same thing I'm saying, all of which seems to be beyond your comprehension.