H2H against the Top Ten

[krosero]

After getting the H2H records of Borg and Vilas against the Top Ten players of '77, I got the same stat for other years; I now have the 1974-89 period covered. All H2H's posted below.

I used the computer rankings of the ATP, as listed here: http://www.tennis28.com/rankings/yearend_topten.html

To compile the H2H's, I used the websites of the ATP, ITF and Davis Cup. If an event is not listed at any of those sites, it is not included in the numbers below.

And I have not included walkovers.


H2H performances against the Top Ten

1974
Connors: 6-1
Newcombe: 9-5
Borg: 10-10

In the Slams: Connors 2-0, Rosewall 3-2, Newk 1-2, Borg 0-0


1975
Ashe: 13-9
Connors: 6-3
Borg: 11-9
Orantes: 10-7

In the Slams: Ashe 2-0, Orantes 2-0, Connors 2-2, Borg 2-2


1976
Connors: 16-4
Borg: 15-7

In the Slams: Connors 2-0, Borg 6-2


1977
Borg: 15-3
Vilas: 15-6
Connors: 17-9

In the Slams: Borg 3-1, Vilas 3-0, Connors 1-2


1978
Borg: 21-2
Connors: 14-3

In the Slams: Borg 6-1, Connors 4-1


1979
Borg: 20-3
McEnroe: 14-9
Connors: 18-10

In the Slams: Borg 3-1, McEnroe 3-0, Connors 1-2


1980
Borg: 20-5
McEnroe: 11-14
Connors: 15-8

In the Slams: Borg 4-1, McEnroe 4-1, Connors 1-2


1981
McEnroe: 10-5
Borg: 6-3
Connors: 7-6
Lendl: 15-9

In the Slams: McEnroe 3-1, Borg 5-2, Connors 1-3, Lendl 3-2


1982
Connors: 7-8
McEnroe: 13-6
Lendl: 17-8

In the Slams: Connors 4-0, McEnroe 1-2, Lendl 2-2, Wilander 4-1


1983
McEnroe: 10-6
Wilander: 10-6
Connors: 5-6
Lendl: 8-9

In the Slams: McEnroe 1-2, Wilander 4-2, Lendl 2-4, Connors 1-1


1984
McEnroe: 20-2
Lendl: 15-12
Connors: 13-10

In the Slams: McEnroe 5-1, Lendl 7-2, Connors 2-3


1985
Lendl: 18-5
Wilander: 6-11
McEnroe: 11-5

In the Slams: Lendl 4-2, Wilander 3-2, McEnroe 1-3


1986
Lendl: 20-4
Becker: 16-4

In the Slams: Lendl 4-1, Becker 3-1


1987
Lendl: 15-4
Wilander: 10-7
Edberg: 15-9

In the Slams: Lendl 6-2, Wilander 4-3, Edberg 2-2


1988
Wilander: 9-2
Lendl: 8-4
Becker: 10-4

In the Slams: Wilander 4-0, Lendl 3-2, Becker 1-2


1989
Becker: 14-5
Lendl: 12-6

In the Slams: Becker 6-1, Lendl 2-3

[krosero]

The best records in this 1974-89 period:

1978, Borg: 21-2
1984, McEnroe: 20-2
1979, Borg: 20-3
1986, Lendl: 20-4
1980, Borg: 20-5


The best 3-year runs in this period:

1978-80, Borg: a combined 61-10
1985-87, Lendl: a combined 53-13

[krosero]

Best records in the Slams:

1978, Borg: 6-1
1989, Becker: 6-1
1984, McEnroe: 5-1
(No one got a 6-0 or 5-0 record, but two players got 4-0: Connors in ’82 and Wilander in ’88 )


Among the names I listed, there were only two instances of a player beating 4 Top Tenners in a single Slam event:

At '82RG Wilander beat Lendl, Gerulaitis, Clerc and Vilas
At '84RG Lendl beat Jarryd, Gomez, Wilander and McEnroe

[juan guzman]

Fantastic info Krosero.

Do you have a complete carrer of Jimmy Connors against top tenners?

[kiki]

What about Ashe in 75? or Gerulaitis in 1979?

[urban]

Good infos, Krosero. Connors, who avoided the WCT tour for the Riordan circuit, didn't play that many top tenners in 1974 and 75. Later on, he played them many more times.

[kiki]

Connors didn´t dare to go WCT until 1975, yet he just entered a few events.

But he had a good H to H record against main WCT player such as Ashe,Smith and Rosewall.Never played Laver and always lost to Newcombe, as far as I can recollect.

[juan guzman]

One question Krosero.The matches against top tenners is at the moment of the match or with players who ended top ten and maybe were not in the top 10 when the match was played.

According to ATP
1984 - John McEnroe was 24-2 against top tenners and Lendl 22-4 in 85.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/DEU...ark-Bites.aspx

[krosero]

Originally Posted by juan guzman

One question Krosero.The matches against top tenners is at the moment of the match or with players who ended top ten and maybe were not in the top 10 when the match was played.

According to ATP
1984 - John McEnroe was 24-2 against top tenners and Lendl 22-4 in 85.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/DEU...ark-Bites.aspx

I used only that list I linked to, which consists of the year-end rankings. The ATP, on individual player's pages, will show their activity but not the ranking of the defeated player at the time of each match -- not in the earliest years from the 1974-89 period. For those years you have to go with the year-end rankings. In later years the current rank becomes available on the ATP pages, but I continued to use the year-end rankings in order to keep everyone evaluated according to the same method.

As for which method might be better, I'm not sure. A player's ranking reflects his performance in the last 12 months, so the year-end ranking covers his performance throughout whatever year is in question.

That ATP page refers to McEnroe holding the record, but their list is from '84 to the present. I wonder what's happened to the earlier years.

One thing to keep in mind, if the ATP does come out with numbers for the earlier years, is that their database lacks many Davis Cup matches from the 70s. That factor doesn't make a huge difference to my numbers (we're usually talking about 2 or 3 Davis Cup wins, at most, in a year for any single player -- often no wins at all). But it's something to keep in mind. That's why I also used the Davis Cup site, to be sure I got all those matches.

I have no other years for Connors, btw.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by urban

Good infos, Krosero. Connors, who avoided the WCT tour for the Riordan circuit, didn't play that many top tenners in 1974 and 75. Later on, he played them many more times.

Yes starting in '76 he played a lot of top tenners. By this one measure, '76 and '78 were his most dominant years over his rivals. It's just ironic that he had negative numbers in '82 and '83 (though not in the Slams), when he got back to the top.

I thought that maybe a greater concentration on the majors might result in such numbers. But Connors always seemed to try no matter what the match was. So it's a little strange. In '84 he's back to positive numbers, and no Slams.

By '82 maybe his age was catching up to him, in the sense that he couldn't produce good days as consistently as before (as Martina said once, you need more recovery time between matches the older you get). You think of Connors in '82-83, and you think of him winning Wimbledon and the USO. But you also think about some really one-sided losses that he took to Lendl in Cincinnati, Toronto, Forest Hills. Losses which somehow I don't think would have happened when he was younger.

[krosero]

I mentioned that Davis Cup matches don't make a great difference in these stats. But a few stand out.

In 1980 McEnroe had a losing 11-14 record, but that includes two Davis Cup losses -- to Vilas and Clerc.

In '83 McEnroe and Wilander tied each other with 10-6 records. McEnroe again lost to Vilas and Clerc, who both lost to Wilander. So apart from Davis Cup, Mac was 10-4 for the year, Wilander 8-6.

In '89 Becker had two big wins in Davis Cup over Agassi and Edberg. Apart from Davis Cup, he is only barely ahead of Lendl: 12-5 vs 12-6.

[pc1]

Great information. We should check out Laver in the early years of the Open Era against the top ten from 1968 to 1970.

[Moose Malloy]

^atp ranking only started in '73.

[robow7]

Interesting that we always think of Connors' great year in 1982 and yet he was less than .500 against the top ten.

[krosero]

That exercise with Laver would be an interesting one (not that I'm volunteering to take it on). It would just have to be done with personal rankings, which are necessarily subjective. That's not necessarily a deal-breaker: after all the computer rankings are subjective too. (The computer does not think for itself). But still, do you use rankings composed by the same person, every year? Or do you freely switch between rankings composed by different people?

[urban]

This is not so easy, because you have to go with one ranking by an expert. For 1970, Tingay has Newcombe, Rosewall, Laver, Roche, Okker, Nastase, Richey, Ashe, Gimeno-Pilic (comb. 9),Ralston-Taylor (comb. 10). Thats 12 people. And one can make arguments for others like Emerson, Gonzalez and others too. Quick check, if one takes the first ten on Tingays list, i have now 22-3 for Laver, but this is not solidified: 3-0 Newcombe, 5-0 Rosewall, 2-2 Roche,3-0 Okker,2-0 Nastase, 2-0 Richey, 2-0 Ashe, 3-0 Gimeno, 0-1 Pilic. It still maybe incomplete. If one takes Ralston and Taylor instead of Gimeno and Pilic, it becomes 23-4 or so. Bud Collins has Smith at 9 instead of Pilic. Would be 23-4 or so for Laver.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

That exercise with Laver would be an interesting one (not that I'm volunteering to take it on). It would just have to be done with personal rankings, which are necessarily subjective. That's not necessarily a deal-breaker: after all the computer rankings are subjective too. (The computer does not think for itself). But still, do you use rankings composed by the same person, every year? Or do you freely switch between rankings composed by different people?

If I were to do it I probably would use Bud Collin's rankings first(also it's in his book) and perhaps some others.

[juan guzman]

Last victory of Connors against a top tenner was in Memphis 1992 against Stich who was number 3 at the time of the match.Truly amazing.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

^atp ranking only started in '73.

Before that it was the Grand Prix which started in 1970.

[urban]

Going by Tingays top ten rankings for 1969: Laver, Roche, Newcombe, Okker, Rosewall, Ashe, Drysdale, Gonzalez, Gimeno, Stolle, i have - including one night stands and third place playoffs - uncomplete stats of something like 35-10 for Laver.