Who was number 1 for 1970?

[timnz]

My pick was Laver because of winning far more titles than anyone else - 15 in total, plus strong winning records against his two main rivals that year - Rosewall (head to head for year 5-0 in Laver's favour), Newcombe (head to head for year 3-0 in Laver's favour).

The main reason for picking Rosewall or Newcombe, was that they won Grand Slam titles but Laver didn't. (Newcombe winning Wimbledon and Rosewall winning the US Open). Laver did poorly in those two events

However, a case could be made that Laver won an equivalent to a Grand Slam that year.

IN 1970 the Australian Open wasn't available for all people to play. However, there was the
1970 Dunlop International final between Laver & Rosewall which Laver won.

I am wondering therefore if the 1970 Dunlop International final was considered a replacement for the Australian Open, at the time.

[jeffreyneave]

i agree laver was the no1 in 1970. the dunlop open was in some of the aussie press as the real aussie open in 1970. players who played the dunlop but not the official aussie included laver, rosewall, nastase, gonzales, gimeno ,stolle, emerson and riessen. all the top playes who entered the real aussie also entered the dunlop.


i see you are a great fan of laver, rosewall and hoad. i think i also read that you are from new zealand

in feb/march 1964 laver, rosewall , hoad and andersen played a round robin tour of new zealand with each playing 12 matches. the final result was :

hoad 7-5
laver 7-5
rosewall 6-6
andersen 4-8

do you have any information or access to the indvidual results.

jeffrey

[timnz]

(Jeffrey - I'll see what I can do....)

My purpose in creating the thread was that for those who don't agree that Laver was the number 1 for 1970 - their argument was that he didn't win a major that year.

My Argument was that the Dunlop in Sydney that year really was the true Australian Open (I know not officially, but all the good players from the Australian Open were there at the Dunlop plus the top players missing from the official Australian Open).

Hence, Laver has a major (albeit unofficial) and because he won a lot more tournaments in total than Rosewall or Newcombe (perhaps more than them both combined ?) then really he is a undisputed number 1 for 1970.

[timnz]

I just checked and Newcombe only won 2 tournaments that year (one was Wimbledon though. The other was a very minor tournament). And Rosewall won 6 (one was the US Open).

Compared to Laver's 15 tournament wins (including as I have said 'the true though unofficial' Australian Open ie the Dunlop in Sydney), why is there any debate as to Laver being the number one in 1970 ?

[charliefedererer]

Originally Posted by timnz

I just checked and Newcombe only won 2 tournaments that year (one was Wimbledon though. The other was a very minor tournament). And Rosewall won 6 (one was the US Open).

Compared to Laver's 15 tournament wins (including as I have said 'the true though unofficial' Australian Open ie the Dunlop in Sydney), why is there any debate as to Laver being the number one in 1970 ?

Well said.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by timnz

(Jeffrey - I'll see what I can do....)

My purpose in creating the thread was that for those who don't agree that Laver was the number 1 for 1970 - their argument was that he didn't win a major that year.

My Argument was that the Dunlop in Sydney that year really was the true Australian Open (I know not officially, but all the good players from the Australian Open were there at the Dunlop plus the top players missing from the official Australian Open).

Hence, Laver has a major (albeit unofficial) and because he won a lot more tournaments in total than Rosewall or Newcombe (perhaps more than them both combined ?) then really he is a undisputed number 1 for 1970.

That was a weird year. Laver was definitely considered the best player in the world by the majority of players and people but he didn't do well in the majors. I suppose if they had an ATP computer rankings in those days Laver would have been number one but they have different standards for ranking players and Laver blew it in the majors.

[hoodjem]

I have been persuaded that Laver (and not Newcombe) was the better no. 1 for 1970.

Would Rosewall be no. 2?

[urban]

In his book of 2002, Newk himself thinks, that Laver was the best in 1970. He writes, that he told him that years later, by the earlier time he was afraid to give Laver a glimpse of his own (Newk's)uncertainty about his status.

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

Originally Posted by pc1

That was a weird year. Laver was definitely considered the best player in the world by the majority of players and people but he didn't do well in the majors. I suppose if they had an ATP computer rankings in those days Laver would have been number one but they have different standards for ranking players and Laver blew it in the majors.

jeffrey's 1970 and 1971 rankings with his own methodology :
1970 : 1. Laver 1095, 2. Rosewall 865
1971 : 1. Laver 938, 2. Rosewall 818
(See : http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...&postcount=292)

jeffrey's 1970 and 1971 rankings with my approach (I grant many more points for majors (equivalent to the modern Slam tourneys) and for final wins) :
1970 : 1. Laver 1072, 2. Rosewall 1028 (see in "Tennis before 1919" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wo...ings/Archive_2)
1971 : 1. Laver 938, 2. Rosewall 818 (see in http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...&postcount=317)

The only reservation I have, not to claim myself Laver #1 in 1970 and 1971 (ahead of Rosewall each year) at 100%, is that I haven't made my own point system, my estimation and I haven't checked jeffrey's estimations.
But save for that I wholly concur with jeffrey on that point.

[timnz]

Thanks

What are your thoughts about regarding the Dunlop at Sydney on par with a major that year (since it was more hotly contested that the official Australian Open)?

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

Hello timnz,
well hard to say, some consider it as the unofficial Australian Open and apparently others seemed to have forgotten that tourney but contrary to the official Australian Open there were at least the NTL pros (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Emerson, Gimeno, Stolle) and in that event Ashe, the Australian titlist was beaten. And even Nastase who usually never came Down Under entered the Dunlop Open. Nasty only came back in Australia in 1981 when he was well past his prime.

[Borgforever]

Well, Ilie Nastase also lost the YEC/GP Masters final at Kooyong in late 1974 to Guillermo Vilas 7-6, 6-2, 3-6, 3-6, 6-4...

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

Originally Posted by Borgforever

Well, Ilie Nastase also lost the YEC/GP Masters final at Kooyong in late 1974 to Guillermo Vilas 7-6, 6-2, 3-6, 3-6, 6-4...

Yes I should have told in a traditional tournament with eliminating rounds.
What does mean "YEC" ?

[Borgforever]

Year End Championship since nowadays Masters is a lot of tourneys and not the season finale tourney thing. Avoid confusion. If that's ever possible in the tennis world...

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

Originally Posted by timnz

I just checked and Newcombe only won 2 tournaments that year..

Newk won 4 tourneys in 1970 :

12-18 january Melbourne Victorian Open (Australie), Grass : Tony Roche 6-4 6-4 4-6 ab.
2-7 june Casablanca/WCT Morocco Open (Maroc), Clay : Andres Gimeno 6-4 6-4 6-4
22 june-4 july Wimbledon (Angleterre), Grass : Ken Rosewall 5-7 6-3 6-3 3-6 6-1
13-19 july Hoylake Rothmans Open North, Grass : Owen Davidson 4-6 9-7 6-4

[timnz]

The Wikipedia site only lists the two of them. Who is up for updating the wikipedia site?

Thanks for the info

[hoodjem]

I believe the statistics convincingly demonstrate that Laver is definite for no. 1 in 1970.

I think the more controversial year is 1971.

[Borgforever]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

I believe the statistics convincingly demonstrate that Laver is definite for no. 1 in 1970.

I think the more controversial year is 1971.

Yes, I agree. 1970 is a super-weird year but I must contend that I think there's uncontestable reason for Laver as alone No. 1 that year. I'm totally convinced. Jeffrey's and Carlo's arguments made it brilliantly clear to me that the only fair judgment on who the top man was in 1970 and that was Rod Laver from Rockhampton in Queensland, Australia -- principally for his limitless dominance in tourney wins (what 10-12 more tourneys than his main rivals Ken and Newk?! Stunning!) plus his dominant Dunlop-bullseye which was brim-filled with greats in the field and the real Aussie Open that year so Rod had one bigass major in the bag back in 1970. And he had H2H dominance against his main rivals in major numbers with no viable excuses for them...

Plus Newk backing up the claim years later when the smoke had cleared. Newk's no liar...

Clear-cut Rod Laver for his 7th straight year as World No. 1 in 1970. The only stain on The Rocket that year is his weak GS-tourney record. I forgive him for that just because he was so insanely dominant EVERYWHERE else.

I do credit Newk and Kenny enormously though and they are joint No. 2's in my book. In a normal era either Newk or Ken would've been probable and easy No. 1's but this was an era of unimaginable talent at the highest level (in my book 1950 to 1974 was the most competitive era before or since because of so many unbelievable players). For me Newk's Wimby victory is just fantastic over a defiant Rosewall. Kenny's achievement there and elsewhere was just as great. He was dang 36!

So being year end No. 2 can be a real prize if your perfs are really impressive in themselves. Super-great, unforgettable No. 2's always worthy of mention? Borg in 1981, Mac in 1980, Lendl in 1984, 88 and 89, Becker 86, Nadal 2005-07, Connors 1975, 78, Sampras in 1999 (although I am so radical and insane that I have Sampras as co-No. 1 with Andre that year -- so sue me! Making Sampras seven years straight No. 1 in my book). What No. 2 means is only that you are extremely close to being Numero Ono on the planet with the tennis joy-stick -- if you're impressive that is...

In 1971 I have triple No. 1's -- a weaker Laver, Newk and Rosewall -- pretty much equal. I don't mind this at all. It could be so. They each had something on the other and everybody was fantastic when they reached their apex that year. These guys are just incredible players so I feel it's unfair to tennis to degrade any of them when they seem to have equal, legitimate arguments for a fair shake as head honcho. So I actually have Rod Laver as No. 1 for eight straight years in the toughest era IMO...

I count more points for Wimby than any other tourney. Depending on the field of course I count 4, 3, 2, 1 for Wimby (4=W 3=F 2=SF 1=QF) and for RG, USO and AO 3, 2, 1 (W=3, F=2, SF=1). Wimby is the biggest. The cathedral of tennis...

[hoodjem]

Rosewall's longevity at the highest levels of the game is indeed incredible, astounding, quite worthy of astonishment.

Originally Posted by Borgforever

So I actually have Rod Laver as No. 1 for eight straight years in the toughest era IMO. . .

You are quite astute in your evaluation my gentle friend. I cannot but agree.

Another excellent reason that "Rocket" Rodney Laver is, hands-down, THE GOAT.

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

Originally Posted by timnz

The Wikipedia site only lists the two of them. Who is up for updating the wikipedia site?

Thanks for the info

AndrewTas had gracefully given me many tournament final results and then I gave them to Jema974, a french colleague. Jema had listed those wins in the French site of wikipedia (and sometimes but not every time in the English one). So if you want more details on a player see the French version directly or by cliking the French link in the English version.