McEnroe's relationship with Arthur Ashe

[tacoben]

As I was watching the youtube video, from another thread, "Mac's Distinct Service Motion", a '78 match between Arthur and John. I wondered what the two player's relationship was like? They were 15 years apart, Ashe being the senior. I know that Ashe eventually became the US Davis Cup coach where McEnroe played under him. Was the relationship close, cordial, professional, indifferent? More importanly, how did McEnroe view Ashe after his diagnosis, and after Ashe's passing? I am curios because this was the era in tennis I followed in my high school days, having stopped for a long period till my daughter started junior tennis 3 years ago. Thanks.

[Stuart S]

I think McEnroe had respect for Ashe as a player, but not so much as Davis Cup captain. Mac felt he wasn't a great leader, and wasn't strong enough to keep a tight rein on Connors, who pretty much flipped in the final against Sweden.

Not sure how Mac viewed him after his diagnosis. But I do recall Connors saying a few nice things about Ashe when he died. But these things always happen when someone passes on, don't they?

[gavna]

They had some pretty good dust ups and didn't see eye to eye on anything.....JMac did respect him as a player but Ashe at first tried keep a lid on JMac and his attitude and finally they didn't even talk on the changeovers. Didn't help that Ashe when he worked TV for ABC could be harsh on JMac. I remember one incident in the doubles with Mac and Fleming Ashe said something to them and as he walked away they looked at each other and started laughing and mugging......

[kiki]

Ashe´s definition of Mac´s game is the best I´ve heard.The scalp theory and so on.

[robow7]

Think of Ashe's calm persona on the court and the ability to control himself in a graceful manner in spite of the racial tensions that he had to contend with off the court, then you have Mac that seemingly has it all, the incredible natural talent, the white skin, the upper class upbringing and yet couldn't control himself at any given moment. No wonder I read that Ashe just couldn't relate to Johnny Mac and hence there was always this tension between them.

[OriginalHockeytowner]

Originally Posted by kiki

Ashe´s definition of Mac´s game is the best I´ve heard.The scalp theory and so on.

Could you elaborate on that?

[Frankc]

Was that the theory that Mac just cut you here and then there and then nicked you somewhere else, and just kept up a cumulative and inevitable slow blood letting?

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by Stuart S

I think McEnroe had respect for Ashe as a player, but not so much as Davis Cup captain. Mac felt he wasn't a great leader, and wasn't strong enough to keep a tight rein on Connors, who pretty much flipped in the final against Sweden.

Yes, the 1984 Davis Cup final where Sweden gave the USA a battering on clay. Wilander thrashed Connors in the first rubber. Then McEnroe, in his golden year, lost to Sundstrom in straight sets, and then in the doubles rubber, McEnroe/Fleming lost a Davis Cup doubles match for the only time in their career as a doubles team, losing to Edberg/Jarryd. McEnroe and Ashe had some sort of fallout, as did Connors and Ashe (although that was nothing new). Ashe and McEnroe seemed to have a lot of respect before this tie, as far as I can see. Not sure about afterwards, though.

1984 was the only year that Connors played in the Davis Cup on a full-time basis. Connors played in just 7 Davis Cup ties during his career, and 4 of them were in 1984. As for the other three, two of them were in 1975 when Tony Trabert was captain, and the other was in 1981 when Ashe briefly convinced Connors to give it a go.

As for McEnroe's belief that Ashe wasn't a strong enough leader to keep a tight rein on Connors, I'd ask "Who is?", apart from Connors' mother and grandmother? Connors was a lone ranger, that's just the way he was. He tried to be a team player a few times, but it didn't really work in Davis Cup. Connors did play a big part in the USA's 1985 World Team Cup triumph, though, when Mecir was crippled with nerves.

Originally Posted by Stuart S

Not sure how Mac viewed him after his diagnosis. But I do recall Connors saying a few nice things about Ashe when he died. But these things always happen when someone passes on, don't they?

The relationship between Ashe and Connors was a lot more complex, ranging from mutual loathing (including multi-million dollar lawsuits) to respect and all sorts in between. Ashe once said that it took all his willpower not to punch Connors in the mouth whenever he saw him in the locker room. I love another famous quote from Ashe:

Reporter: Isn't Connors an a***ole, though?
Ashe: Yeah, but he's my favourite a***ole.

Before that 1984 Davis Cup final, Connors was mistakenly locked out of a training session where McEnroe and Fleming were training, and once Connors eventually gained access, he wrote in the clay in large letters "F*** you, Artie" before leaving in prompt fashion.

On the more positive side, I've seen Connors and Ashe laughing and joking when Ashe interviewed Connors at Wimbledon after many of his matches, and they seemed very friendly on those occasions. It was a very interesting relationship they had.

Originally Posted by OriginalHockeytowner

Could you elaborate on that?

A nick here, a cut there, and pretty soon, you're bleeding.

Originally Posted by Frankc

Was that the theory that Mac just cut you here and then there and then nicked you somewhere else, and just kept up a cumulative and inevitable slow blood letting?

Correct. Death by a thousand cuts.

[OriginalHockeytowner]

^Thank you for the clarification, it makes sense now

[urban]

Ashe once wrote, that Mac was the beast in himself, in his own persona, like - thats my formula - the Mr. Hyde, he (Dr. Arthur) had always to control.

[SusanDK]

Connors was completely distracted during the 1984 Davis Cup final as his wife was due to deliver their first child at any time. In hindsight, he probably should not have traveled to Sweden for that tie. Had he not, who would have been the U.S. likely choice for the 2nd singles? Any idea?

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Frankc

Was that the theory that Mac just cut you here and then there and then nicked you somewhere else, and just kept up a cumulative and inevitable slow blood letting?

Yes, that´s it.Ashe said sosmething like this:

" When you play Connors or Borg, you feel like you are being hit with a sledgehammer...but this guy, Mc Enroe, has a scalp...one short ball here, one drop there...he cuts you slowly...the wounds aren´t deep, but you bleed to death " I always like this definition.

[BeHappy]

In his book Ashe said that McEnroe referred to a 45 year old black linesman as "boy".

I don't think he held him in particularly high regard.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by SusanDK

Connors was completely distracted during the 1984 Davis Cup final as his wife was due to deliver their first child at any time. In hindsight, he probably should not have traveled to Sweden for that tie. Had he not, who would have been the U.S. likely choice for the 2nd singles? Any idea?

Not, Brett Connors, the first Connors child was born in 1979.I remember, during their torrid 1980 W SF, Connors said to Mac: " next time, I´ll bring my 1 year old kid, who has better manners than you"...

As for who could have been Mac´s teammate, if I was Ashe at 1984 I´d have to options:

Pick up a clay specialist, like Arias or Kkrickstein ( but I don´t think that would have changed the final result)

Pick up a seasoned, motivated guy, and even if he was 30 by then, I can´t find anybody better than Vitas Gerulaitis.Contrary to Connors, Gerulatis and Mc Enroe were close friends, and they had already won a DC together, in 1979 vs Italy .

[Stuart S]

Originally Posted by kiki

Yes, that´s it.Ashe said sosmething like this:

" When you play Connors or Borg, you feel like you are being hit with a sledgehammer...but this guy, Mc Enroe, has a scalp...one short ball here, one drop there...he cuts you slowly...the wounds aren´t deep, but you bleed to death " I always like this definition.

Yes, that's a nice analogy. Clever. Love him or hate him, Ashe was a thinker.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Stuart S

Yes, that's a nice analogy. Clever. Love him or hate him, Ashe was a thinker.

True, a very inteligent man who was a leader for the black community, even beyond the borders of the Us...and a streaky player and champion who, when felt well with himself, could be one of the nicest ever players to watch.Tons and tons of talent, that he wasted a bit since his interests were beyond tennis ( if he had kept alive, he maybe the first US black president instead of Obama, he had a big politichal talent although he never liked the polithical atmosphere and never joined the pro politicians of Washington)

[SusanDK]

Originally Posted by kiki

Not, Brett Connors, the first Connors child was born in 1979.I remember, during their torrid 1980 W SF, Connors said to Mac: " next time, I´ll bring my 1 year old kid, who has better manners than you"...

Oops, my error. I read she was expecting and due to deliver any day, but it must have been child #2. If I recall, Connors departed after his singles loss (or it may have been after the doubles loss that decided the tie), because he did not stick around for the meaningless reverse singles on the last day.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by SusanDK

Oops, my error. I read she was expecting and due to deliver any day, but it must have been child #2. If I recall, Connors departed after his singles loss (or it may have been after the doubles loss that decided the tie), because he did not stick around for the meaningless reverse singles on the last day.

The first time I saw Henrik Sundtrom, in a juniors event, I was impressed by his athletic potential.He was a late blossomer but the key man to give Sweden the DC title.

Sweden dominated DC in the decade of the 1980´s, just as Australia in the 60´s, the US in the 70´s and Spain in the 00...what a great team.Wilander,Sundstrom,Edberg and Jarryd¡¡¡

[Stuart S]

Originally Posted by SusanDK

If I recall, Connors departed after his singles loss (or it may have been after the doubles loss that decided the tie), because he did not stick around for the meaningless reverse singles on the last day.

Connors had displayed pretty appalling conduct in his singles rubber against Wilander, so much so that he saw fit to issue an apology to tournament referee Alan Mills (who said later that Connors had seemed very genuine with his apology). But Connors departed the next day.

But as Susan DK said earlier in this thread, in retrospect Connors should never have been there, not with wife Patti about to drop. So why did he go? My best guess is that perhaps Jimmy saw this as his last chance to win a Davis Cup medal.

Incidentally Mac was no angel at that final either. And both he and Jimmy refused to sign the new 'code of conduct', drawn up by the USTF in the aftermath of Sweden.

I think for Connors this was no loss; perhaps he'd had it with Davis Cup by then. For Mac, it put him out of the Davis Cup picture for the next few years. America's loss, I'd say.

[tacoben]

Originally Posted by kiki

True, a very inteligent man who was a leader for the black community, even beyond the borders of the Us...and a streaky player and champion who, when felt well with himself, could be one of the nicest ever players to watch.Tons and tons of talent, that he wasted a bit since his interests were beyond tennis ( if he had kept alive, he maybe the first US black president instead of Obama, he had a big politichal talent although he never liked the polithical atmosphere and never joined the pro politicians of Washington)

I have no doubt that Ashe could have made it to the political arena and to the very highest office. Ashe was intelligent, articulate, inspirational given his very vocal view about civil rights and South Africa at the time. Unlilke McEnroe and Connors who more like jocks and not really aware of the political causes of the 70's-80's. Not to sidetrack my own thread, but I found this link for those interested, snippets of Ashe's "views of life"....just small condensed recordings of interviews with him.

http://www.timmccarver.com/ashe.html