If Henin had been Serena's height -- she would have been the Female GOAT...

[Magnetite]

If she was taller she may have be prone to injuries (even more so).

The only thing we can say is that, she would most likely have been a better player. You just never know however.

If she was taller maybe she would have preferred to play a different sport.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by monfed

Henin was 5'5 for god sakes. That's short by any standards. None's saying she should've been 6'6 or something, which would probably hamper her movement. It's being simply said that if she'd been atleast the standard height of say 5'10 or 6 how much better she would've been. Did i get it right,TMF?

Yep. It's only a few members who can't get it. If you ask anyone which size would they preferred to be pro tennis player, they would say 5'10", not 5'5"

[TMF]

Originally Posted by Magnetite

If she was taller she may have be prone to injuries (even more so).

The only thing we can say is that, she would most likely have been a better player. You just never know however.

If she was taller maybe she would have preferred to play a different sport.

Assuming that Henin had Serena physique, then I agree she would be prone to injury. But Henin's physique suits well for a tennis player. You look at Venus who's 6'1", turned pro back in 1994 and is still active. So I believe a 5'10" Henin would be just fine.

[BeHappy]

Her height didn't affect her at all. She serve over 120mph at least once a match usually. She was literally a freak, and lb for lb probably the most powerful player who's ever lived.

She served just as big as James Blake and Agassi to put that into perspective,.

She was a bit slow though, a bit more speed would have been good.

[BlewByU]

Originally Posted by 10is

nuff said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vRI3...eature=related

10is.
I would personally like to thank you for creating this excellent thought-provoking thread.
You hit a home run right off the start! Didn't you?
Can't wait to read your next threads.

Absolutely great to philosophize on our all-time favorite player, Justine Henin.
I feel soooooooo lucky to be a contemporary of Justine ,, although she is sometimes a bit of an enigma to me.

I remember early 2000s when both Henin and Federer started making noise.
It was greatest of times.
To me, it was Henin rather than Federer who truly excited me - from the very foundation, i mean.
I swear, i knew that i was witnessing the making of the greatest female tennis player. Ever. Bar none. No ifs. No buts.
I also wouldn't have hesitated bestowing Henin the greatest male or female.
Then came the fateful 2008.
And i am broken hearted ever since,,,
(although Kvitova is here now)

------------------------------------

I can't wait to grab Henin's auto-biography if and when she writes one.
I hope she writes it frankly.

I want to know :
1. honest account of why she decided to leave tennis
2. true account of how she developed her backhand stroke
(3). if she was happy with the forehand she ended up with
(4). if she was happy with the serve she ended up with
(5). what really happened during her first marriage

although i have a feeling she wants to take 'em all to her grave,,,

. . . . .

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Her height didn't affect her at all. She serve over 120mph at least once a match usually. She was literally a freak, and lb for lb probably the most powerful player who's ever lived.

She served just as big as James Blake and Agassi to put that into perspective,.

She was a bit slow though, a bit more speed would have been good.

Actually it was her lack of height that forced her to develop such a lethal offensive game for such a small woman. I think people forget that her lethal backhand was a direct development to the fact that she was short. Anyone that plays tennis knows that you tend to lean towards more western grips to compensate for higher balls when you are developing as a player, and that is what exactly happened to Justine Henin. Her entire arsenal developed due to the fact that she was short, and that she was FORCED to develop a different type of game. She couldn't overpower anyone, but she could combine power, precision, and variety together to beat her opponents. It was great when she was on (see the USO 2007 where she beat both Serena and Venus), but when she was off she was wildly inconsistent. Her body type was indeed a handicap, but it was that handicap that forced her to develop the way she did, and alot of people tend to forget that.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by BlewByU

I can't wait to grab Henin's auto-biography if and when she writes one.
I hope she writes it frankly.

I want to know :
1. honest account of why she decided to leave tennis
2. true account of how she developed her backhand stroke
(3). if she was happy with the forehand she ended up with
(4). if she was happy with the serve she ended up with
(5). what really happened during her first marriage

although i have a feeling she wants to take 'em all to her grave,,,

. . . . .

Yeah, I don't think she'd be open about 1,3,4, and 5.

Right now, I'm inclined to think her ego/insecurity drove her to first retire, then gamble on altering her forehand to try to eek out a little more performance in her quest for total dominance.

However, reading 10is's post makes me wonder if her problems were actually physical, which then lead to her attempt to reduce strain by altering her strokes.

Ugh, when I saw her "new" forehand I wanted to cry, even though it was performing adequately.

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Actually it was her lack of height that forced her to develop such a lethal offensive game for such a small woman. I think people forget that her lethal backhand was a direct development to the fact that she was short. Anyone that plays tennis knows that you tend to lean towards more western grips to compensate for higher balls when you are developing as a player, and that is what exactly happened to Justine Henin.

First off, Henin uses an "Extreme Eastern" grip, which is only 1/2 bevel back from Eastern. It's easy to imagine, or even assume, that she used an Extreme Eastern grip at a young age, before she even knew she would be short as an adult. Also note that among clay courters of all heights, an Extreme Eastern is somewhat common. (Kuerten, 6'3" used one)

In any case, even if you're right, I think a plausible scenario would be:
1. As a young junior she is small and so she develops her weapons,
2. She has a growth spurt in her mid-teens and grows to 5'10",
3. She becomes the Federer of the WTA.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

Yeah, I don't think she'd be open about 1,3,4, and 5.

Right now, I'm inclined to think her ego/insecurity drove her to first retire, then gamble on altering her forehand to try to eek out a little more performance in her quest for total dominance.

However, reading 10is's post makes me wonder if her problems were actually physical, which then lead to her attempt to reduce strain by altering her strokes.

Ugh, when I saw her "new" forehand I wanted to cry, even though it was performing adequately.





First off, Henin uses an "Extreme Eastern" grip, which is only 1/2 bevel back from Eastern. It's easy to imagine, or even assume, that she used an Extreme Eastern grip at a young age, before she even knew she would be short as an adult. Also note that among clay courters of all heights, an Extreme Eastern is somewhat common. (Kuerten, 6'3" used one)

In any case, even if you're right, I think a plausible scenario would be:
1. As a young junior she is small and so she develops her weapons,
2. She has a growth spurt in her mid-teens and grows to 5'10",
3. She becomes the Federer of the WTA.

The fact that Henin was shorter than everyone else forced her to play an unconventional game in the WTA. Had she not been her height, it is unlikely that she would have developed the same game. You're talking about a theoretical situation that is basically impossible, because if Henin was taller her game would have taken a totally different approach.


Western/Extreme Eastern grips develop as a result of growing up on claycourts. Henin's height was both an advantage and disadvantage. It forced her to play a more complete game, while also allowing her to move far better than most players that are taller than her. People keep assuming Henin would have the same movement and anticipation if she were taller; that's false. I seriously doubt Henin develops along the same lines if she had a different body type; I'd venture a guess she'd play a much more conventional game if she was taller. She'd play far more big bang tennis rather than creative point construction, and we all know that would never work against the Williams Sisters.


If Henin was taller, she'd play more conventional, which results in probably worse results. Her height directly forced her to play in a way that was in stark contrast to what other WTA players were doing. If she played a more conventional game, sure she'd have more firepower, but her movement, variety, and overall work ethic would be worse. Her point construction likely wouldn't be as good, and neither would her overall technique. People want to make assumptions in a vacuum that if we keep all factors the same, then we can get certain results. Well unfourtanately, that's not the way things work. You can't make choices in a vacuum and assume Henin develops her game along the same path if she was at a different height.

[NadalAgassi]

That is all true. Henin would just be another Big Babe if she were taller most likely, and considering Big Babe players the quality of Davenport and Capriati won only 3 slams, she probably wouldnt have done any better than that, if not perhaps worse, hence a noteably inferior career to her current one most likely. What set her apart from nearly all other top WTA players was her all around game, and mostly her precision and variety from the baseline combined with power, which she developed since she was so short.

She probably wouldnt have the movement either if she was taller. Venus is a rare exception, an extremely tall player who moved sensationally, one cant assume Henin would be that same exception. Serena meanwhile is blessed with having the strength, power, and psychique of a 6"3 or taller player despite being only 5"10 or 5"11 herself, plus still being a superb mover. It is unlikely Henin would be blessed with that rare combination if she were taller.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

That is all true. Henin would just be another Big Babe if she were taller most likely, and considering Big Babe players the quality of Davenport and Capriati won only 3 slams, she probably wouldnt have done any better than that, if not perhaps worse, hence a noteably inferior career to her current one most likely. What set her apart from nearly all other top WTA players was her all around game, and mostly her precision and variety from the baseline combined with power, which she developed since she was so short.

She probably wouldnt have the movement either if she was taller. Venus is a rare exception, an extremely tall player who moved sensationally, one cant assume Henin would be that same exception. Serena meanwhile is blessed with having the strength, power, and psychique of a 6"3 or taller player despite being only 5"10 or 5"11 herself, plus still being a superb mover. It is unlikely Henin would be blessed with that rare combination if she were taller.

Exactly, the reason why Henin at her best was able to compete/score wins over the William Sisters was because she was able to utilize precise offensive groundstrokes to move them around. When she was off, it was pretty bad to watch. But when Henin was on, she was extremely difficult to beat, because you had basically nowhere to go, and the only thing you could do was pray that she choked or just simply try and outplay her.


Her aggressive precision game developed as a DIRECT result of her lack of big power and her height. Her body type FORCED her to play the type of tennis that she did. To think that she would develop along the same lines if she was taller is asinine; she'd probably play something more like a Clijsters, who by all means is good, but did not have the same success as Henin did. Let's face it; if Justine Henin attempts to play like Clijsters (which I would assume she would considering Clijsters is listed at 5'9), she probably wins maybe 1-2 slams, AT BEST. The era that Justine Henin played in was NOT easy. Having to face off against the Williams Sisters near their best/at their best is a totally different animal than what Clijsters has been handed.

[NadalAgassi]

The good news for Henin might be the clay field is pretty open even in the Williams era. However the way Henin plays allows her to dominate on clay especialy, and if she didnt develop along those lines she would probably just be another good clay courter vying for titles there along with Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, and also Serena, and not a standout favorite. Plus if it werent for Henin, Serena might be looked at as the dominant clay courter now, she missed titles in 2003 and maybe 2007 due to Henin most likely, and probably gave up on Roland Garros a bit after 2004 due to Henin's dominance there, which wouldnt happen with a taller ball bashing Henin.

[10is]

@BlewByU: Thank you! I couldn't agree more with your sentiments regarding Henin, though as BevilDevil stated, as private a person as she was, its doubtful she will ever be forthcoming about the events in her personal life, despite being tangentially or directly relevant to her tennis as some of those events no doubt were.

@NamRanger & NadalAgassi: Meh! At this point I could care less about your atypical flawed and erroneous reasoning, especially since you are repeating arguments that have hitherto fore already been comprehensively refuted or at the very least negated. Feel free to carry on though for it appears the only individuals you're trying to convince are your own selves. Have fun!

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by 10is

@BlewByU: Thank you! I couldn't agree more with your sentiments regarding Henin, though as BevilDevil stated, as private a person as she was, its doubtful she will ever be forthcoming about the events in her personal life, despite being tangentially or directly relevant to her tennis as some of those events no doubt were.

@NamRanger & NadalAgassi: Meh! At this point I could care less about your atypical flawed and erroneous reasoning, especially since you are repeating arguments that have hitherto fore already been comprehensively refuted or at the very least negated. Feel free to carry on though for it appears the only individuals you're trying to convince are your own selves. Have fun!

You cannot change one factor of a player's development and expect them to not take a different path. If you're taking the assumption that Justine Henin works just as hard with a more physical, then I might say sure. But that's a HUGE assumption.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

The good news for Henin might be the clay field is pretty open even in the Williams era. However the way Henin plays allows her to dominate on clay especialy, and if she didnt develop along those lines she would probably just be another good clay courter vying for titles there along with Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, and also Serena, and not a standout favorite. Plus if it werent for Henin, Serena might be looked at as the dominant clay courter now, she missed titles in 2003 and maybe 2007 due to Henin most likely, and probably gave up on Roland Garros a bit after 2004 due to Henin's dominance there, which wouldnt happen with a taller ball bashing Henin.

Henin faced way tougher competition by virtue of players like Clijsters, Mauresmo, etc. etc. outside of slams. Heck, even old Mary Pierce at the FO is a better opponent than some of the players Clijsters has faced in her slam victories during her 2nd stint.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

The good news for Henin might be the clay field is pretty open even in the Williams era. However the way Henin plays allows her to dominate on clay especialy, and if she didnt develop along those lines she would probably just be another good clay courter vying for titles there along with Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, and also Serena, and not a standout favorite. Plus if it werent for Henin, Serena might be looked at as the dominant clay courter now, she missed titles in 2003 and maybe 2007 due to Henin most likely, and probably gave up on Roland Garros a bit after 2004 due to Henin's dominance there, which wouldnt happen with a taller ball bashing Henin.

Well I mean, even the HC/Grass competition was tremendously better than it is now adays. Clijsters has racked up a ton of slams post motherhood mainly because of the fact that she plays in an incredibly weak era of womens tennis. As good as Clijsters is, she wasn't able to score a slam until way late into her first career.

[NadalAgassi]

True. Clijsters is definitely an opportunist. Have to hand it to her though, she picked the perfect time to come back and was able to capatilize on the gaping hole in the womens game where others have failed to take the same opportunities.

[BlewByU]

To vaguely assume that Henin would have adopted different kind of tennis, had she been taller/stronger, is not convincing at all.

For all we know, from get go, Henin was a different breed of a player who possessed extraordinary vision to realize (extremely rare at the time already) all-court classical tennis based on superb techniques/variety/touch/point construction and such.

She always wanted to play this way.
And if she ever wins anything, she wanted to win this way.
We can see this passion along every step of Henin's tennis life.
I always felt that it was in her blood.

This is Henin's earliest video clip on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVICq998L7s

We can see that youthful Henin already had all the marks of a classical all-court player.
Her youth game is pretty much a miniature version of her later adult game.

She is not small for a youth and bigger/stronger than the other girl but she has no intention of even trying to overpower her opponent.
She tries to win with classical all-court tennis based on fluid strokes/variety/touch/point construction etc.

It is extremely difficult to even imagine that Henin would have turned herself into some mindless ball-basher or any other variant for that matter had she been taller/stronger.

. . . . .

[BeHappy]

Something a lot of you are missing is that ALL women in the last 15 years have been "mindless ball bashers", and Henin is no exception.

This is because women have comparable power to men, but with about 3 exceptions (Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Steffi Graf), terrible movement.

Henin's strokes were prettier but in the end, her gamestyle was very similar to the Williams sisters or Lindsay Davenport etc. She hit the living crap out of the ball.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by BlewByU

To vaguely assume that Henin would have adopted different kind of tennis, had she been taller/stronger, is not convincing at all.

For all we know, from get go, Henin was a different breed of a player who possessed extraordinary vision to realize (extremely rare at the time already) all-court classical tennis based on superb techniques/variety/touch/point construction and such.

She always wanted to play this way.
And if she ever wins anything, she wanted to win this way.
We can see this passion along every step of Henin's tennis life.
I always felt that it was in her blood.

This is Henin's earliest video clip on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVICq998L7s

We can see that youthful Henin already had all the marks of a classical all-court player.
Her youth game is pretty much a miniature version of her later adult game.

She is not small for a youth and bigger/stronger than the other girl but she has no intention of even trying to overpower her opponent.
She tries to win with classical all-court tennis based on fluid strokes/variety/touch/point construction etc.

It is extremely difficult to even imagine that Henin would have turned herself into some mindless ball-basher or any other variant for that matter had she been taller/stronger.

. . . . .

To vaguely assume that Justine Henin plays the same type of game despite the fact that you are making a dramatic change in height is asinine. Completely. It's like saying what if Sampras was 4 inches taller, his serve would be even more dominant and he'd win even more slams.


Changing something like a player's racquet already makes a huge impact on them immediately. Changing something so important as body type would completely change a player's development. Assuming that Justine Henin would have worked as hard, would have played with insane precision, etc. etc. while having a "taller" body is just completely too funny. If anything, she plays something like a Clijsters/Mauresmo and is nowhere near as good as she was.

[BevelDevil]

I somewhat agree with BeHappy here. Henin's "point construction" abilities are being relatively overrated. She was a ball basher of sorts, and at 5'10" she'd be the greatest ball basher ever.

So even if she changed her tactics as a taller person, she'd still dominate the game, the same way that Federer realized he should stick to the baseline most the time.


As I said before, the most outstanding thing about Henin is not her point-construction, not her work ethic, not her mentality, but her ground stroke technique, without which we wouldn't know her name.

And those strokes are going to be honed: 1. Before she can expect to be fully grown, 2. Regardless of her height.

Afterall, Del Potro is 6'6" yet he developed a stroke which is very similar to Fed's (minus the pronation at the backswing). It is still a pull-style, straight arm forehand which allows for tremendous power production from even physically weak, short players, as well as tall ones.


Incidentally, I think Henin's approach shots are no better than above-average. I've seen her frequently come in behind some terrible balls. In fact, I've often seen her completely dictating the point from the baseline, then she decides to come into the net behind a weak ball and gets passed. It's like her coach is forcing her to do something she, deep down, feels like she shouldn't.

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

I somewhat agree with BeHappy here. Henin's "point construction" abilities are being relatively overrated. She was a ball basher of sorts, and at 5'10" she'd be the greatest ball basher ever.

So even if she changed her tactics as a taller person, she'd still dominate the game, the same way that Federer realized he should stick to the baseline most the time.


As I said before, the most outstanding thing about Henin is not her point-construction, not her work ethic, not her mentality, but her ground stroke technique, without which we wouldn't know her name.

And those strokes are going to be honed: 1. Before she can expect to be fully grown, 2. Regardless of her height.

Afterall, Del Potro is 6'6" yet he developed a stroke which is very similar to Fed's (minus the pronation at the backswing). It is still a pull-style, straight arm forehand which allows for tremendous power production from even physically weak, short players, as well as tall ones.


Incidentally, I think Henin's approach shots are no better than above-average. I've seen her frequently come in behind some terrible balls. In fact, I've often seen her completely dictating the point from the baseline, then she decides to come into the net behind a weak ball and gets passed. It's like her coach is forcing her to do something she, deep down, feels like she shouldn't.

Well I don't agree that Henin was bad at the net at all, I think she was an excellent volleyer. And I don't think her being taller would really have made a difference. The only advantage of being taller is the big serve - well she had a big serve. Huge, by the standards of the WTA actually.