80% of the game is about serves???

[martini1]

In sub-4.5. A lot of the serves in are 2ND serves. Very slow 50mph range, 65mph 2nd serve is very rare in 4.0 from what I see.
The difference is there will be tons of UEs and double faults. The service is won a lot of times due to UE from the other guy when returning.

Keeping the ball in on the 3rd and 4th stroke is more important at lower level, simply because the serve is either too slow or not consistent enough to force a defensive floater return.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by decades

you're making the case, perhaps inadvertently, that if this guy had a decent serve he would be a 5.0 player and not relegated to 4.5 because his serve is average. you're proving the absolute importance of the serve. it drives home the point many of us are making. his practice time should be spent Primarily on improving his serve. best bang for his practice buck to move up a level.

The point above was a counter argument that a lack of serve could be offset by another outstanding strenght. But, I fully agree with you that the serve is critical to performance. Someone quoted Vic Braden above and he came out with the theory of importance being 1. Serve, 2. Return, 3. Volley about 30+ years ago. Volley was 3rd back then as most pros served and volleyed. In modern game and recreational game 3rd will now be the groundstroke game as things have obviously changed. I agreed with Vic 30 years ago and I think we are agreeing now. To me, the serve is the highest priority shot in tennis at all levels.

I used the example above to show even though the serve is a high priority shot, a service weakness can still be overcome. But, you are correct in that this guy could move up by improving his serve more so than any other thing in his game.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by martini1

In sub-4.5. A lot of the serves in are 2ND serves. Very slow 50mph range, 65mph 2nd serve is very rare in 4.0 from what I see.
The difference is there will be tons of UEs and double faults. The service is won a lot of times due to UE from the other guy when returning.

Keeping the ball in on the 3rd and 4th stroke is more important at lower level, simply because the serve is either too slow or not consistent enough to force a defensive floater return.

Disagree with this. I think serve is most important shot at all levels. Say average 3.0 level serve is 50 MPH, accurate placement ratio of 50%, and double fault rate of 20%. In a singles match between two 3.0 players with equal games except for the serve. Say one has the "average" serve attributes and the other has a stronger serve - say average of 60 MPH, accuracy ration of 75%, and lower double fault rate of 10%. The one with the stronger service attributes will win vast majority of times due to the fact that the serve starts 50% of the points.

I don't buy into arguement that the serve matter less. I think a stronger serve at 3.0 level is more important that a stronger forehand because your serve starts all of your service points. 1st stroke hit establishes the tone for the point at all levels.

[Power Player]

I just played practice points last night and thought about this. I have been working on my returns so I gave away a lot of free points to my partner just because I was trying things. I saw him getting some confidence just from this even though he knew I was playing loose and it was practice.

So when it was my time to serve I just served him out..basically grabbed all the confidence back by giving him heavy spin serves he dumped into the net and then pounding his returns for winners.

My point is a lot of the reason the serve is so big for my game is the mentality of the process.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by user92626

It's unnecessary and trivial if you put it that way. You may as well say the toss is the most important since without it nothing gets started!

I'll put it this way for you to understand. From beginning to solid 4.5, virtually no one could win out right (serve through opponents) with a 70, 80 mph serve that he could do, but a decently placed 40, 50 mph isn't a liability either. (The numbers are only my illustratrive figures). Same thing with return, are you able to bat winners or seize outright control off of 40-70mph balls?

I am not implying the serve is the most important because 1 player will hit through another player at the same level. My view is the theory of the serve being the most important stroke is because it starts each point in your service game and sets the tone for all those points. Simple math, most rallies are shorter than we think and the serve is always going to be hit as you can not start a point with it. You can play lots of points without hitting a groundstroke in a match. The theory is since it is the 1st stroke hit in each rally and sets the tone for the rest of the rally, the serve is the most important stroke and warrants lots of work. Vic Braden introduced the theory 30+ years ago but I have heard others reference it. Return is 2nd most important.

I think of it this way. If my serve is 10% better than your serve, but your forehand is 10% better than my forehand; I have the advantage for the following reasons:

1. I will start everyone of my service points with my strength
2. I can avoid your forehand in many instances by but you cannot avoid my serve on my service games: I can avoid your forehand by hitting away from it, winning point on my serve, or winning point on my return.
3. The rally has to go 3 or 4 shots to get to your strength and many rallies will never get that far in the course of a match

Sampras and Agassi are good examples. Sampras had better serve, Agassi had better groundgame. Sampras won vast majority of time because he could start all his service points on good terms with his strenght which was the 1st ball struck.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by Power Player

I just played practice points last night and thought about this. I have been working on my returns so I gave away a lot of free points to my partner just because I was trying things. I saw him getting some confidence just from this even though he knew I was playing loose and it was practice.

So when it was my time to serve I just served him out..basically grabbed all the confidence back by giving him heavy spin serves he dumped into the net and then pounding his returns for winners.

My point is a lot of the reason the serve is so big for my game is the mentality of the process.

I basically agree with this too. Serve can be a great confidence builder. It sets tone for all your service points - serve well and you usually get a ball back that you can work with. It builds confidence and lets you take more risk on return side. I think Sampras and Isner made/making millions doing this.

[GuyClinch]

The one with the stronger service attributes will win vast majority of times due to the fact that the serve starts 50% of the points.

All this sounds good - but its just not true at the rec level. The reason is even a 'good' serve isn't going to win alot of points straight up at say 3.0 level. Even bad players are going to time alot of balls - and get alot of returns back.

This is very different then pros who can hit unreturnable serves when their serves are good relative to the other shots.

In reality people might have a 3.5 serve and a 3.0 game or a 4.0 serve and a 3.5 game - etc. So that gap isn't enough to get easy wins - and you end up with a ground stroke rally.

Here the better groundstrokes (which are hit half the time I might add) remember you recieve half the time as well.. will turn the tide.

In short in rec games - the player with very good groundstrokes usually has the advantage because serves aren't a weapon yet.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by TennisCJC

I think of it this way. If my serve is 10% better than your serve, but your forehand is 10% better than my forehand; I have the advantage for the following reasons:

1. I will start everyone of my service points with my strength
2. I can avoid your forehand in many instances by but you cannot avoid my serve on my service games: I can avoid your forehand by hitting away from it, winning point on my serve, or winning point on my return.
3. The rally has to go 3 or 4 shots to get to your strength and many rallies will never get that far in the course of a match

Again, it doesn't work that way in reality for rec levels though.
The difference is really neglecible. You could use your "logic" for fitness and same thing. The guy that's 10-20% more fit than the next guy does not necessarily win a 3.5 match. The deciding factor is probably mostly who focuses better and tries harder not to make UEs, who's a little more experienced and savvy at competition.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by user92626

Again, it doesn't work that way in reality for rec levels though.
The difference is really neglecible. You could use your "logic" for fitness and same thing. The guy that's 10-20% more fit than the next guy does not necessarily win a 3.5 match. The deciding factor is probably mostly who focuses better and tries harder not to make UEs, who's a little more experienced and savvy at competition.

Exactly right some here are way overboard with the serve and its importance.

[tlm]

If the serve is so important then how did rafa nadal win 10 majors and be considered one of the best players in the history of the game , but yet he has a weak serve?

[Power Player]

You are mistaking power with placement. Nadal's placement and spin on his serves is excellent.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by Power Player

You are mistaking power with placement. Nadal's placement and spin on his serves is excellent.

It may be but his serve is much weaker than the other top players and he gets very few aces or unreturned free points.

[r2473]

Originally Posted by tlm

It may be but his serve is much weaker than the other top players and he gets very few aces or unreturned free points.

But he sets up the point with his serve.

Good lesson here. Even at the professional level, for one of the top players in the world, placement is more important than power.

[5263]

Originally Posted by tlm

It may be but his serve is much weaker than the other top players and he gets very few aces or unreturned free points.

His serve is slower than many, but not weaker.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by 5263

His serve is slower than many, but not weaker.

Then why does he get less free points off his serve compared to the other top players then?

[LeeD]

At the pro level, Connors, Agassi, and Nadal had/have slower and weaker serves. As said, the ball comes back more often than not.
But a couple or 3 of the above players played tennis pretty well, didn't they?
As usual, we are all different. Some players need a huge serve to win. Other servers choose to serve much weaker to win. Different server, different strategy of serving.
OlivierRochus had a weak serve, played mostly between top 15-30.
Dr.Ivo has a great serve, plays mostly in that same range.
Sure, giving Rochus the serve of Ivo SHOULD benefit Rochus, but maybe not.
Sure as heck, give Rochus's serve to Dr.Ivo, and everyone benefits except for Dr.Ivo.

[martini1]

Originally Posted by TennisCJC

Disagree with this. I think serve is most important shot at all levels. Say average 3.0 level serve is 50 MPH, accurate placement ratio of 50%, and double fault rate of 20%. In a singles match between two 3.0 players with equal games except for the serve. Say one has the "average" serve attributes and the other has a stronger serve - say average of 60 MPH, accuracy ration of 75%, and lower double fault rate of 10%. The one with the stronger service attributes will win vast majority of times due to the fact that the serve starts 50% of the points.

I don't buy into arguement that the serve matter less. I think a stronger serve at 3.0 level is more important that a stronger forehand because your serve starts all of your service points. 1st stroke hit establishes the tone for the point at all levels.

I don't know where you see these "3.0's". DF @ 20%?? 50% 1st serve in?? That's too good for the 3.0s I see and have played.

90%+ of 3.0 serves can be returned standing 2 ft inside the baseline. 3.0s are ppl who are still having prob directing their shots with pace and control. And since the serve is the 3rd or 4th stroke they learn since playing it is hard to believe a mere 3.0 can serve anything that good. I was just happy to get the ball inside the box most of the time. Service games are meant to be broken. And if you are not expected to hold in an convincing fashion it would make serving less of a #1 priority. It is only important in a sense that one does not DF all the time to give away free points, and free games.

[olliess]

Originally Posted by GuyClinch

All this sounds good - but its just not true at the rec level. The reason is even a 'good' serve isn't going to win alot of points straight up at say 3.0 level. Even bad players are going to time alot of balls - and get alot of returns back.

This is very different then pros who can hit unreturnable serves when their serves are good relative to the other shots.

From my (admittedly limited) experience in tournament and competitive rec play, the 3.5+ guys with big serves basically rack up the free points. Unless their serve goes seriously off, the first serve almost never comes back with much of anything on it (if it comes back at all), and their second serves with heavy spin still draw errors and are almost never returned offensively. So in that sense, improving your serve is about the quickest road there is to winning, even at rec levels. All you have to do is get develop a reasonably heavy kicker that goes in 60% of the time and you don't even need a "true" first serve.

[Roy125]

Most players I know at the high school level don't have efficient serves; they mostly try to get it in to start the point on equal terms with the opponent. So no, I don't think that 80% of the game is all about serves.

That is...except for the 1% of tennis players that have good serves.

[jdubbs]

4.5 here with a big serve. Can confirm that I win a lot of points on my serve, but less at the 4.5 level than at the 4.0 level.

I went through a year of a LOT of double faulting, but kept developing my second serve instead of dinking. Now I can hit you with either a flat first serve or spinny 2nd serve, or spin my first, hit it to the BH or FH side, serve it out wide etc.

Sometimes I'm equal to my opponent on groundstrokes but my serve will win out. I also play a guy where I'm better than him on groundstrokes but his serve is ridiculously good so we're pretty even, or he even wins a little bit more than I do.

Keep developing your serve. If it doesn't look anything like the pros, then start over with a pro and learn how to serve correctly. It makes a big difference in your game.