U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

[woodrow1029]

Is Memphis a State school, or a private university?

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Is Memphis a State school, or a private university?

State.

In fact, its name used to be Memphis State

[andfor]

Have not been here in days and come around and see this. Looks like this thread was designed for me to bring me out and try to embarress the program. Not gonna happen. I'm obviously a Memphis Tiger fan and one of the few if not only who posts here about their tennis teams. Total class act by both men's and women's programs, players, coaches and admin at all times. To my fellow posters and international student athlete supporters, thanks. To the poster, good luck with your time wasting letter writing campaign.

The poster must have an underlying ax to grind. You will never get any traction with your attempt to change the system based on your arguments. Overall just a pathetic post.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by andfor

Have not been here in days and come around and see this. Looks like this thread was designed for me to bring me out and try to embarress the program. Not gonna happen. I'm obviously a Memphis Tiger fan and one of the few if not only who posts here about their tennis teams. Total class act by both men's and women's programs, players, coaches and admin at all times. To my fellow posters and international student athlete supporters, thanks. To the poster, good luck with your time wasting letter writing campaign.

The poster must have an underlying ax to grind. You will never get any traction with your attempt to change the system based on your arguments. Overall just a pathetic post.

Easy Man.

It's not against Memphis alone. It's not even just against the great Tennessee state.

It's against ALL state schools that overstocked international players.

Just as an earlier response to my post pointed out that both the USTA and ITA have already been alerted of the situation by several respected coaches, but can't do anything by themselves alone.

-- Do they all have ax to grind against Memphis? I don't believe so

I honestly do not have any ax to grind except for the care of our own American kids who badly need scholarship money in such tough economy.

I myself had tutored a few former local walk-ons or reserves while in grad school.

My honest opinion is that they are nearly as good as the international recruits, if not as good or better.

They all deserve a scholarship, but didn't get one.

(Evidences are that in a few matches, they have to sit the international kid who was in a bad streak and start the walk-ons.)

I don't know whether there are people here who're old enough to remember a guy from USC in the 90's who spend his entire college career as a walk-on, but won serveral cruical matches for the team toward winning the championship, but never got any scholarship money?

He later become a top 100 doubles player in ATP, coached a top 10 WTA player, and then became the head coach of a Div I team in SEC in the mid 2000's.

He deserved a scholarship every single bit but didn't get one.

Back to the school I am talking about, it did not stock more than 2 international players though, and I believe it still does not, and is a top 10 team year in a year out, albeit recently having hard time recruit against conference rivals.

They made up the disdvantage with superb player-development skills by their great assistant coaches.

It may take longer time and more efforts for them, but Isn't that better for our American kids than "buying" our way in like the pro teams in the long run?

-- Isn't that what our colleges are supposed to do: develop our own kids?

While you're excited for your Tigers athletic team's success. I'd urge you to calm down for a second and give your thought to our local kids who got beat out by the international recruits just for a few seconds...

And ask yourself:

1. Do OUR kids deserve a chance (if not a better chance)?
2. Does national pride thump school pride?

Peace and God bless America

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by JLyon

so why exactly are you picking on Memphis, when 90% of the Universities do the same thing? Did your kid not make the team?

Please see my previous post.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Yea, businesses love having the government limit their pool of candidates on their behalf. Lol.

Even the H1-B visa for foreign IT workers has limits. Why not state college scholarships?

(I'd argue it should go beyond athletic scholarships)

[woodrow1029]

I'm assuming you must be a fan of the Patriot League Conference. Here's a team that will be in the NCAA tournament with all Americans:

http://www.navysports.com/sports/m-t...ennis-mtt.html

Last year, it was Army that won the Patriot League, and came to Stanford for their first round match. They got thumped by Stanford in less than 2 hours, but they were so happy to be there, and so gracious to the Stanford hosts, the umpires, the volunteers. Great group of guys. I am assuming that Navy will be the same.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by PaulC

ask yourself:

1. Do OUR kids deserve a chance (if not a better chance)?
2. Does national pride thump school pride?

Peace and God bless America

1) Yes, they deserve a chance. But, they have to be good enough. If they aren't good enough they'll get beat out. That's life.
2) No, schools operate athletics to make money...not my decision, but a fact of life

I'm not in favor of giving anyone a competitive advantage that isn't earned. This me, me, me, me generation looking for handouts is creating a lot of lost souls that think runner up and consolation prizes are good enough. Not everyone should get a trophy.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Even the H1-B visa for foreign IT workers has limits. Why not state college scholarships?

(I'd argue it should go beyond athletic scholarships)

First you said it was a misuse of state taxpayers' money for State schools to give athletic scholarships to foreigners. Then when it was pointed out that this rationale would limit scholys granted to American out-of-staters, you dropped the tax argument and started saying it's about national pride.

But now you are saying, again, "state college scholarships" should be limited? So this means you are ok with private schools, but not state schools giving scholys to foreigners?

This would definitely take the NCAA out of the picture, because it is unrealistic to think they would give even two seconds of thought to such an idea. You are back to petitioning Rick Perry and Bill Haslam and other governors and state legislatures. (USC would be sitting pretty under your proposal as I understand it)

I am very happy the State college that gave my kid a tennis scholy has foreigners and has told us they will continue to try to recruit foreigners. My kid needs to compete with and against the best available competition. And I think it will be so valuable educationally and culturally for my kid to have international teammates.

This was a selling point for my kid's acceptance of the offer from this school over other schools that had just domestic or regional players.

Our family is American

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

If your proposal is to limit only the number of athletic scholarships granted to foreigners, but not to out-of-staters, then your state tax argument is eviscerated.

Not really.

Just like state college admission, they certainly can admit out-of-state students, but international students need to pay full fee on their own, like you mention below.

They can of course always offer scholarships to A FEW top researchers who can protentially benefits the state, but if they offer 2/3+ of their academic scholarships to foreigners like some college tennis teams, it did indeed happened before in a UC campus to a point that state legislatives gave them hard time. Ended up the UC campus in question kinda keeping an eye on this issue themselves thereafter. Although no new laws were resulted.

-- So the argument is about the same "Fair and Reasonable use" of our state money, which is always an operable agenda here, if you have involved or attended any state legislature meetings.

Originally Posted by Misterbill

A scholarship for someone holding a non-US passport costs a school the same as a scholy for a person from out-of-state.

Yes and so...?

Originally Posted by Misterbill

So there would need to be a new rationale. Nationalism? Protection from foreign (tennis) competition? The future of US tennis?

See above. Yes, a little bit of nationalism. But mostly "Fair and resonable use of state money" will be suffice for stirring a look or talk already.

Originally Posted by Misterbill

You'll need something to persuade Republican governors such as Rick Perry of Texas and Bill Haslam of Tennessee....and their respective legislatures........ to want to make the Longhorns and Volunteers/Tigers, respectively, less competitive.

(No disrespect for Texas or Tennessee suggested or implied, these are just two of many possible hypothetical examples)

Hey, just like the H1-B visa thing, we can argue either way to the eternity, but the bottom line, there can NOT be without a limit, and even the H1-B visa does have limits.

"Willful violators" like Microsoft can certainly still "buy" their way in, but then will have to paid penalties to the states for tech education fundings.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

1) Yes, they deserve a chance. But, they have to be good enough. If they aren't good enough they'll get beat out. That's life.
2) No, schools operate athletics to make money...not my decision, but a fact of life

I'm not in favor of giving anyone a competitive advantage that isn't earned. This me, me, me, me generation looking for handouts is creating a lot of lost souls that think runner up and consolation prizes are good enough. Not everyone should get a trophy.

Sometimes it's perception, not real competition.

The perception that the international kid is always better. But just like my USC example: That walk-on, actually the other walk-on too are just as good, and in fact are being competitve with the international kids during internal plays.

But then the coaches didn't realize that walk-on was that good until after they have to sit the foreign kid, but it was already the walk-ons final year.

Well, you may still say: hey: The foreign kid managed to win the eye-candy contest, so he deserve his scholarship anyway

[bluetrain4]

If funding foreign scholarships via state taxes (no matter how convoluted the path from taxpayer to athlete), is somehow a misuse of taxpayer funds or otherwise "illegal" based on any particular state's statutes and state constitution, then I'd have to assume that there has been and/or will be litigation.

Seriously, in our sue-for-everything society, the issue would/will undoubtedly come up in a lawsuit if there is actually anything illegal going on, and not simply a situation of "I want American kids to have more opportunities" sentiments.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

First you said it was a misuse of state taxpayers' money for State schools to give athletic scholarships to foreigners. Then when it was pointed out that this rationale would limit scholys granted to American out-of-staters, you dropped the tax argument and started saying it's about national pride.

See previous post. I don't need to drop the "Fair and reasonable use of state tax" argument, it happened before and actually worked in CA regarding academic scholarships. New or change of law may not be resulted, but if they can forward memos to all the ADs, it will be suffice to get them to get a hold of the situation.

Originally Posted by Misterbill

But now you are saying, again, "state college scholarships" should be limited? So this means you are ok with private schools giving scholys to foreigners?

No, But if NCAA can't do anything, there's nothing we can do against a private institution. Enlighten me if you have better suggestions.

Originally Posted by Misterbill

This would definitely take the NCAA out of the picture, because it is unrealistic to think they would give even two seconds of thought to such an idea. You are back to petitioning Rick Perry and Bill Haslam and other governors and state legislatures. (USC would be sitting pretty under your proposal as I understand it)

Originally Posted by Misterbill

I am very happy the State college that gave my kid a tennis scholy has foreigners and has told us they will continue to try to recruit foreigners. My kid needs to compete with and against the best available competition. And I think it will be so valuable educationally and culturally for my kid to have international teammates.

This was a selling point for my kid's acceptance of the offer from this school over other schools that had just domestic or regional players.

Our family is American

Again, it's NOT the existence of international players that is the problem, it's the NUMBER or PERCENTAGE that is the problem here. I myself don't mind a few foreign kids in the athletic teams, but you SHOULD NOT have the 3 quarter+ of your team with international players.

A DIGRESSION: One of my Chinese friend just commented that: Due to the proliferation of ex-Chinese ping-pong national team players flooded some euro countries, the International table tennis ferderation change their rules to NOT allowing player after the age of 21 who switch nationality to play for a country in Olympics or World Championship.

This is to preserve the chances and resources to develop native young players.

You can call that protectionism, nationalism, intervention of free market, fear of competiton etc etc etc.

Bottom line: ITTF has the gut to stand up against all the legal challenges and make it work, and the native players appauded it.

Hope somehow NCAA finally figure a way to handle this... as I do admit picking on state colleges alone is unfair, but someone have to start doing something somehwhere.

Status quo is not an acceptable situation either.

Even the BCS will now got a plus 1 playoff , so any system can be treaked if the NCAA is determined enough to fix the status quo.
(OK, although NCAA is not involved in BCS, you get the point)

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Enlighten me if you have better suggestions.

It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

To each his own.

[floridatennisdude]

Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.

This forum needs a "LIKE" button for posts like this one^^

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by bluetrain4

If funding foreign scholarships via state taxes (no matter how convoluted the path from taxpayer to athlete), is somehow a misuse of taxpayer funds or otherwise "illegal" based on any particular state's statutes and state constitution, then I'd have to assume that there has been and/or will be litigation.

Seriously, in our sue-for-everything society, the issue would/will undoubtedly come up in a lawsuit if there is actually anything illegal going on, and not simply a situation of "I want American kids to have more opportunities" sentiments.

Unfortunately, legality is the exact challenge that NCAA is fearing it'll get into discrimination lawsuits it faced in the 70's against those track teams again.

So I guess the only thing that can be done at this point is stirring such "sentiment" from the legislative members, and see if the ADs get some memos and exercise some self-constraint

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.

Thank you for agreeing to disagree in a civil manner, unlike our political parties

You did not speak to a brick wall, I do hear you clear and loud regarding fair competition concerns, and per responded by my personal experience.

Big Kudos back to you man!

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

This forum needs a "LIKE" button for posts like this one^^

Hehehehe!

If nothing else, I hope this can actually set an example of "how to agree to disgree" in a civil manner.

Think.... John Adams and Thomas Jefferson

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

To each his own.

Yeah... It goes quite a bit to the national pride side.

But then I ask myself: if every college, whether state or private, will have enough money AND allowed to offer UNLIMITED scholarships to both local and international players.

Would I be even talking about this with you folks?

Probably not.

So I would say: for me, it's still a *Resource Allocation* issue more than a national pride one, in a significantly Limited Resource situation, given they only got 4.5 each school nowadays.

Also, you ALREADY enlightened me by providing the ITF info already.