How tough would Curren have been for McEnroe in the 83 Wimbledon final?

[sandy mayer]

I know this is a hypothetical question but what do you think would have happened if Kevin Curren had reached the 1983 Wimbledon final? I know Mcenroe in his autobiography said he was more nervous of Curren as a final opponent than Chris Lewis who Mac beat very easily.

Curren was a very very dangerous opponent at Wimbledon, as Mac found out 2 years later in the quarters. Lewis was more of a solid serve and volleyer who moved very well, but didn't have the weapons to threaten Mac much. I'm surprised Lewis beat Curren in the semi. It was a very close five set.

I believe Mac would have won, but I think Curren would have won alot more than the 6 games Lewis won.

[gavna]

Kinda moot as Curren couldn't even get past Lewis.......83 JMac still would have clocked Curren.

[timnz]

Originally Posted by gavna

Kinda moot as Curren couldn't even get past Lewis.......83 JMac still would have clocked Curren.

Being a New Zealander we were very proud of Chris Lewis at the time. However, the question I had was what if Connors had gotten past Curren and Lewis? The fact that Connors had beaten McEnroe at Queen's makes me think that he had a very good chance of beating him at Wimbledon. He was the defending champion having beaten McEnroe in the previous years final as well and went on to win the US Open that year as well.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by timnz

Being a New Zealander we were very proud of Chris Lewis at the time. However, the question I had was what if Connors had gotten past Curren and Lewis? The fact that Connors had beaten McEnroe at Queen's makes me think that he had a very good chance of beating him at Wimbledon. He was the defending champion having beaten McEnroe in the previous years final as well and went on to win the US Open that year as well.

I agree. It was a golden opportunity missed by Connors at 1983 Wimbledon as he fell on the graveyard, like so many other seeded players over the years.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Mustard

I agree. It was a golden opportunity missed by Connors at 1983 Wimbledon as he fell on the graveyard, like so many other seeded players over the years.

Curren seemed to be able to take out the big names, but against the lesser knowns, he did not do so well. Had Connors gotten thru, it would've been a tough test for Mac...50/50, I'd think; Jimbo was #1 at the time, no? He had beaten Mac at Queens just before Wimbledon. I also think Curren would've done much better than Chris Lewis did in the final.

[urban]

Like Tanner (or Riessen, Ralston and Larsson), Curren was what i call a top quarterfinal player. Here he was extremely dangerous against top players, when no ultimate prize was on the line. But he was not champion caliber. In finals he got tight in close situations, and his big serve began to misfire. So maybe he would have taken a set, but not the match.

[kiki]

at least, 2 tie breaks assured.

[Xavier G]

83 McEnroe would have beaten 83 Curren in the same manner he beat 83 Lendl, a tight match dominated by serve, a tiebreak or two, but Mac getting a vital break or two and winning. Three tight sets or 4 sets, but Mac winning. He generally got the better of Kevin before 1985.
Connors, on the other hand, may have beaten Mac in the final if he had gotten past Curren. Connors was able to beat McEnroe on the lawns back then. Of course, John may have won anyway. That match would be a 50-50 grudge match and a rematch of 82.

[Cuculain]

And what an awful decision by the tournament to put the defending champion out on that court! what was with that? I'm sure that didnt help!

[subban]

"Kinda moot as Curren couldn't even get past Lewis.......83 JMac still would have clocked Curren."

Not Really...As different players with different styles of playing match up against each other differently. For one thing, Mac hated pace and powerful serves, something Curren supplied a lot of. Curren handled Mac easlily in the '85 Wimbeldon. But by '85 Curren was using a graphite racquet to generate even more powerful pace than what he was generating. I don't know what kind of racquet Curren was using at the '83 Wimbeldon, if it was graphite or wood. I think if Curren was using a graphite racquet, there is a very good probability that Curren could have beaten and overpowered Mcenroe if Curren had reached the final. Curren also was a very streaky player. He won a lot of matches only when his first serve percentage was very high. If Curren was having an off day and his first serve was'nt going in, he was a very medicore player that any top 30 player in the ATP could easily beat. In the '85 Wimbeldon, Curren's first serve was freakishly high against mac in the quarters, and outstanding against Connors in the semis. Its only the '85 final against Becker that Curren lost his first serve that he had to lose the tournament to a 17 year old. So, you have to add in the fact that Curren had to have a good day and that his service game was going to be good on the day of the final. If not, then Mcenroe could easily take him out.

[sandy mayer]

Originally Posted by subban

"Kinda moot as Curren couldn't even get past Lewis.......83 JMac still would have clocked Curren."

Not Really...As different players with different styles of playing match up against each other differently. For one thing, Mac hated pace and powerful serves, something Curren supplied a lot of. Curren handled Mac easlily in the '85 Wimbeldon. But by '85 Curren was using a graphite racquet to generate even more powerful pace than what he was generating. I don't know what kind of racquet Curren was using at the '83 Wimbeldon, if it was graphite or wood. I think if Curren was using a graphite racquet, there is a very good probability that Curren could have beaten and overpowered Mcenroe if Curren had reached the final. Curren also was a very streaky player. He won a lot of matches only when his first serve percentage was very high. If Curren was having an off day and his first serve was'nt going in, he was a very medicore player that any top 30 player in the ATP could easily beat. In the '85 Wimbeldon, Curren's first serve was freakishly high against mac in the quarters, and outstanding against Connors in the semis. Its only the '85 final against Becker that Curren lost his first serve that he had to lose the tournament to a 17 year old. So, you have to add in the fact that Curren had to have a good day and that his service game was going to be good on the day of the final. If not, then Mcenroe could easily take him out.

Good post. Curren was using a wooden racket in 83. In about 1985 when I was a kid, I remember while rain stopped play at Wimbledon watching a replay of the end of the Curren Lewis match. It's so long ago I don't remember it at well but I definitely remember Curren was using a wooden racket and that it was a very exciting match.

[Mustard]

Didn't Curren use the wooden racquet until the end of 1984?

[gavna]

Originally Posted by sandy mayer

Good post. Curren was using a wooden racket in 83. In about 1985 when I was a kid, I remember while rain stopped play at Wimbledon watching a replay of the end of the Curren Lewis match. It's so long ago I don't remember it at well but I definitely remember Curren was using a wooden racket and that it was a very exciting match.

He was using the Kramer Pro Staff until 84......then switched to Knissel. I don't know where you get JMac had issues with pace? In 83 and 84 he dominated Lendl and Conners both who creamed the ball. He was 8 - 2 vs Lendl those 2 years and most of the time He won in straights. JMac in 83 and 84 was playing at his highest level - the 85 McEnroe was nowhere the same player thats when he started to drop off and have to deal with the BS from Tatum. Also JMac owned Curren as well he is 9 - 1 lifetime and the only aberration was the Wimby loss.
McEnroe never had issues with pace - he ate up guys like Tanner or Noah who all had big games.

[sandy mayer]

Originally Posted by gavna

He was using the Kramer Pro Staff until 84......then switched to Knissel. I don't know where you get JMac had issues with pace? In 83 and 84 he dominated Lendl and Conners both who creamed the ball. He was 8 - 2 vs Lendl those 2 years and most of the time He won in straights. JMac in 83 and 84 was playing at his highest level - the 85 McEnroe was nowhere the same player thats when he started to drop off and have to deal with the BS from Tatum. Also JMac owned Curren as well he is 9 - 1 lifetime and the only aberration was the Wimby loss.
McEnroe never had issues with pace - he ate up guys like Tanner or Noah who all had big games.

I agree with you about Mac and pace. Connors' biographer Joel Drucker said no-one was better at dealing with pace than Mac up to that point in tennis history.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by subban

"Kinda moot as Curren couldn't even get past Lewis.......83 JMac still would have clocked Curren."

Not Really...As different players with different styles of playing match up against each other differently. For one thing, Mac hated pace and powerful serves, something Curren supplied a lot of. Curren handled Mac easlily in the '85 Wimbeldon. But by '85 Curren was using a graphite racquet to generate even more powerful pace than what he was generating. I don't know what kind of racquet Curren was using at the '83 Wimbeldon, if it was graphite or wood. I think if Curren was using a graphite racquet, there is a very good probability that Curren could have beaten and overpowered Mcenroe if Curren had reached the final. Curren also was a very streaky player. He won a lot of matches only when his first serve percentage was very high. If Curren was having an off day and his first serve was'nt going in, he was a very medicore player that any top 30 player in the ATP could easily beat. In the '85 Wimbeldon, Curren's first serve was freakishly high against mac in the quarters, and outstanding against Connors in the semis. Its only the '85 final against Becker that Curren lost his first serve that he had to lose the tournament to a 17 year old. So, you have to add in the fact that Curren had to have a good day and that his service game was going to be good on the day of the final. If not, then Mcenroe could easily take him out.

They already had played before, in 1980, 4 th round, Mac won in straigh sets.I guess it would score like the semi vs Lendl: 7-6,7-6,6-4.

[Moose Malloy]

I have the (edited) version of Connors-Curren '83, & the semis from that year(Curren-Lewis, Mac-Lendl) on dvd.

Based on the quality of play by Curren & Mac in the semis, I think Mac would have won the final in straights had he faced Curren(think he made only 5 ue's vs Lendl - who didn't make many either. He served at 68% which was pretty high for him. I think it was a more impressive performance than his '84 final, certainly one of the best matches of his career)

I also think there was a big difference in the Curren of '85 & the Curren of '83, possibly due to equipment. His serve was obviously great with both wood & graphite, but his return was considerably improved in '85, he was teeing off Connors & Mac's serve in a way that he wasn't vs Connors & Lewis's serves in '83, perhaps the larger frame made him more confident(I'm sure many of you have heard former pros say that the return is where graphite racquets really changed the game. Even Mac was doing things with that shot regularly in '83 & '84 that I never saw him do with wood, we all know his thoughts on that in his book)

The Connors-Curren match in '83 was actually pretty close, I think Jimmy only lost serve twice, it was really close to going 5. Pretty baffling that it was on Court 2(which was not as nice a court as it became in the 90s, watching it reminds me of how much better all courts have become over the years & how the stars get treated so much better now. I can only imagine what crap court assignments Laver had to deal with)
Mac-Scanlon was on Center Court & Cash-Lendl was on Court 1 that day, it looks like there was only one men's match on each court that day, maybe they were trying to beat the rain(looked very overcast)

Curren was on the receiving end of maybe the worst overrule I've ever seen in a big match on a big point in the semis. was down break point at 6-6 in the 5th, S&Ved, Lewis made an attempted pass that was called out & clearly wide(Lewis was walking back to get ready for the next point) when the umpire called it good & gave Lewis the game!

I'm not sure I've seen a bigger difference in racquet size in a match than the racquets Lewis & Curren were using that day, it was almost comical, an oversize graphite vs standard wood. And again I think it showed in the returns, Lewis was getting more balls in play than Curren(will have to check my stats) - a lot of them were chintzy returns that he just stuck his racquet out that landed in awkward spots(kind like that last shot that he got the overrule with)

The fact that Connors had beaten McEnroe at Queen's makes me think that he had a very good chance of beating him at Wimbledon

Queens grass was very different than Wimbledon, heard players talk about it all the time, how much 'truer' bounces were there.

Didn't Curren use the wooden racquet until the end of 1984?

was still using it at the '84 AO(lost final to Wilander)

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

83 McEnroe would have beaten 83 Curren in the same manner he beat 83 Lendl, a tight match dominated by serve, a tiebreak or two, but Mac getting a vital break or two and winning. Three tight sets or 4 sets, but Mac winning. He generally got the better of Kevin before 1985.
Connors, on the other hand, may have beaten Mac in the final if he had gotten past Curren. Connors was able to beat McEnroe on the lawns back then. Of course, John may have won anyway. That match would be a 50-50 grudge match and a rematch of 82.

...it could also look like their 84 final...

[kiki]

Originally Posted by sandy mayer

I agree with you about Mac and pace. Connors' biographer Joel Drucker said no-one was better at dealing with pace than Mac up to that point in tennis history.

Rosewall,Connors,Mac and Nastase, they are by definition the guys that used opponent´s pace to their own profit.Connors did it with the ROS like nobody, before or afterwards.

[krosero]

The Curren-McEnroe H2H:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/...=M047&oId=C057

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Connors, on the other hand, may have beaten Mac in the final if he had gotten past Curren. Connors was able to beat McEnroe on the lawns back then. Of course, John may have won anyway. That match would be a 50-50 grudge match and a rematch of 82.

Mac was playing better in '83, partly due to his switch to graphite, which did have an impact on his game. I'd give Mac an edge in an '83 rematch.