Foreigners in College Tennis

[usta2050]

Do you see international students play football?

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

What maybe true for the top dogs, like Auburn and Alabama, is not true of the perennial bottom dwellers in these conferences(names not mentioned becuase I don't want to insult any alumni here, but you know who they are). We have already shown that one of the main sources of revenue for these programs is student fees and contributions from the general funds.

I am just trying to figure out exactly what the objections are.

If you are REALLY upset about your tax dollars going to foreigners, I am just trying to point out that it does not apply to the most visible tennis programs from the biggest public universities. So, you should have no qualms against those programs. If you still have problems with those programs, then the outrage is not about the tax dollars at all (this is where the original disingenuous remark applies).

[cll30]

How many other counties play American-style football?

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Because you are not looking at it from the women's side of the equation. Women's teams have higher percentage of foreign players, and these are scholarships that were created to address the imbalance caused by football and basketball scholarships.

No, I am looking at it from EVERY angle.

Tennis scholarships, even counting women's programs, are just tiny fraction of the overall number of scholarships that a typical university hands out.

If you want changes in how scholarships are handed out, it is not going to be really up to the coaches, it is going to be up to the athletic directors. From their point of view, they have tens of programs with hundreds of scholarships that they manage. The fact that people are complaining about 5% of the overall scholarships going to foreign students is just not going to generate any stress for a typical athletic director (or perhaps even more importantly, major donors).

You need to step away from tennis focused microscope and look at the entire athletic program and better yet, the entire university. From that point of view, handing out athletic scholarships to 10 to 15 foreign students out of hundreds in total is just not a significant problem.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

I am just trying to figure out exactly what the objections are.

If you are REALLY upset about your tax dollars going to foreigners, I am just trying to point out that it does not apply to the most visible tennis programs from the biggest public universities. So, you should have no qualms against those programs. If you still have problems with those programs, then the outrage is not about the tax dollars at all (this is where the original disingenuous remark applies).

Ok, let me be clear then.
1. My objection is to the total percentage of scholarships being awarded to foreign tennis players, with a particular concern on the women's team, although I am concerned about the men's game.
2. I do not have a problem with a reasonable proportion of scholarships being awarded to foreign students. I think that is healthy for the game and the students for all the reasons mentioned - increased competition, exposure to diversity - but the situation is clearly out of hand, with almost 50% of scholarships awarded to foreigners in division I, and this is based 2007 data. It’s probably higher.

3. I am particularly bothered by coaches at state institutions who seem to show a callous disregard for the part of their job descriptions that should mention, if it does not, attracting local recruits first based on talent and potential, and doing their job, which is coaching(i.e, developing) the players. But I don’t reserve my contempt just for them. I am equally frustrated with coaches at private universities that don’t even bother to try to recruit Americans. How can you be the head coach of the Udub tennis team and not be bothered to try to recruit players from Washington unless they are in teh top 20?? Her attitude is just disturbing.

4. Please review MY posts again. I never once said my objection is my tax dollars going to foreign scholarships. You keep on trying to shoot this argument down but I never made it. In fact, as long as they live within reasonable percentage, I wouldn’t have a problem with this. You argued that BCS programs are self-sufficient and federal tax money does not go directly to scholarships. I said I think that’s a fantasy and it gets there indirectly. You ignored that. Oh well, we can continue to disagree on this because it doesn’t matter(to me), becuase my objection is that 50% of scholarships are going to foreign player’s regardless of the source of the money. On the women’s side in particular I think this shows contempt for Title IX. With public institutions, we can exercise right as citizens, though elections, and participation in the oversight process, to decide how they operate, and that includes how they are allowed to offer scholarships, and spend their money even if it’s not direct tax payer money. We have the power to change their policies. Similarity, even private institutions are subject to regulation, and compliance with federal and state laws, as they all take federal money.

5. That said, I think this issue is best attacked at the AD and conference level. While the NCAA claims that it wouldn’t be legal for them to regulate this is, the fact is there are legal arguments on both sides. The real answer it’s not something they are concerned enough about that they would bother to try. It would take breaking a lot of eggs, and would really be a no win situation for them to try. At a conference levels, if you can get a majority of AD’s to agree you can make a change.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by cll30

How many other counties play American-style football?

American football is played in almost every continent on the planet including North and South America, Asia, Europe and the Pacific Rim nations. The International Federation of American Football is the official international governing body of American Football and oversees 45 member organizations. Beginning in 1999, the international Federation of American Football has also sponsored a world cup of American football with Japan taking the honors in both 1999 and 2003.

I got that from some website.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

NCAA :

Misterbill - you wrote you supported international students " Because I think it strengthens college tennis, because I think that our kids need to learn to compete" -

I did? Where?

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Misterbill - you also wrote "they offered were better than our player". Yeah, but were any of these "Freshman" 20 year olds with European tour experience ? Yeah, of course there better. Yes, I know this is being addressed with a new NCAA regulation, but we will see how that goes. I'm sure there are already people looking for the loopholes.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think so. We didn't dwell on it. Negative energy creates losers. Stayed positive and moved on. And things worked out fine.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

I did? Where?

My apologies. That was ClarkC.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Not 100% sure, but I don't think so. We didn't dwell on it. Negative energy creates losers. Stayed positive and moved on. And things worked out fine.

Unfortunately, this has been the case in our little remote neck of the woods, and this is not the only place it has happened.

More importantly, I think its the job of the college coaches to not just focus on the top 20 in the rankings, but look down the list, and find those kids who maybe didn't have the ability to live full time in Boca or Ojai, or the money to travel to all the national tournaments. Noones winning majors at 18 years old anymore, there's still time for these kids to get better. Find the kids who can benefit from coaching and coach them.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Unfortunately, this has been the case in our little remote neck of the woods, and this is not the only place it has happened.

More importantly, I think its the job of the college coaches to not just focus on the top 20 in the rankings, but look down the list, and find those kids who maybe didn't have the ability to live full time in Boca or Ojai, or the money to travel to all the national tournaments. Noones winning majors at 18 years old anymore, there's still time for these kids to get better. Find the kids who can benefit from coaching and coach them.

Aloha, I think your heart is in the right place, and I can understand where you are coming from.

But......here's the sledge hammer after the compliment--no, I hope you don't think so.

In junior tennis, the players and their families pay the coach. (yes, hound109, I know there are some exceptions)

In college tennis, the coach pays the players and their families.

And if the coach does a bad job choosing who to pay, the coach loses his/her own job.

Alumni donors and ADs.....I think....are in a better position to tell college tennis coaches what their jobs are.........than the employees or families of employees.

(OK, let me get my flak helmet on to defray shrapnel from others.......and possible friendly fire from you!!!)

[usta2050]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Aloha, I think your heart is in the right place, and I can understand where you are coming from.

But......here's the sledge hammer after the compliment--no, I hope you don't think so.

In junior tennis, the players and their families pay the coach. (yes, hound109, I know there are some exceptions)

In college tennis, the coach pays the players and their families.

And if the coach does a bad job choosing who to pay, the coach loses his/her own job.

Alumni donors and ADs.....I think....are in a better position to tell college tennis coaches what their jobs are.........than the employees or families of employees.

(OK, let me get my flak helmet on to defray shrapnel from others.......and possible friendly fire from you!!!)

well said...if I were a coach, I would pick winners. Look at all the top basketball recruits, they get multiple offers, no?

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Aloha, I think your heart is in the right place, and I can understand where you are coming from.

But......here's the sledge hammer after the compliment--no, I hope you don't think so.

In junior tennis, the players and their families pay the coach. (yes, hound109, I know there are some exceptions)

In college tennis, the coach pays the players and their families.

And if the coach does a bad job choosing who to pay, the coach loses his/her own job.

Alumni donors and ADs.....I think....are in a better position to tell college tennis coaches what their jobs are.........than the employees or families of employees.

(OK, let me get my flak helmet on to defray shrapnel from others.......and possible friendly fire from you!!!)

I actually agree with this...I'm a big believer in, what gets measured, gets done...that's why I said change needs to come from the AD level and conference level

Coaches contracts are much more complicated that win at costs and get paid, lose and get fired...they have to be successful within certain parameters...such as graduation rates, etc. No reason % of US players cant be among them.

If local USTA organizations, high school coaches, alumni, particularity tennis alumni, take the time to communicate the issue to the AD, these things can change..

Somewhat related, our local paper just ran a great story on two women tennis team players who graduated from the UH back in the Mid 80's. It talked about how they both got to go to college when they might not have been able to afford to otherwise, and the great tennis careers they have had since(as coaches and management, not as players). It was a heart warming story, but the writer missed the epilogue - if either of these women were graduating from high school today, they would have no chance of getting a scholarship to the university..but, hey, thanks to our polish players, we made the NCAA's, and that's what counts, right ?

Heres a link to the article, unfortunately, it is behind a pay wall, it will cost you .99 to read it : http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports...l?id=149798105

[usta2050]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

I actually agree with this...I'm a big believer in, what gets measured, gets done...that's why I said change needs to come from the AD level and conference level

Coaches contracts are much more complicated that win at costs and get paid, lose and get fired...they have to be successful within certain parameters...such as graduation rates, etc. No reason % of US players cant be among them.

If local USTA organizations, high school coaches, alumni, particularity tennis alumni, take the time to communicate the issue to the AD, these things can change..

Somewhat related, our local paper just ran a great story on two women tennis team players who graduated from the UH back in the Mid 80's. It talked about how they both got to go to college when they might not have been able to afford to otherwise, and the great tennis careers they have had since(as coaches and management, not as players). It was a heart warming story, but the writer missed the epilogue - if either of these women were graduating from high school today, they would have no chance of getting a scholarship to the university..but, hey, thanks to our polish players, we made the NCAA's, and that's what counts, right ?

Heres a link to the article, unfortunately, it is behind a pay wall, it will cost you .99 to read it : http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports...l?id=149798105

No offense, but Hawaiian residents (not Hawaiians, there are no Hawaiians in Hawaii. Most a melting pot of filipinos, polys, jps, and haoles) are very anti-non-hawaiian. the colleges in hawaii, esp. byu-hawaii have a huge team of foreign players for many years.

Are you a polynesian? by any chance?

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by usta2050

No offense, but Hawaiian residents (not Hawaiians, there are no Hawaiians in Hawaii. Most a melting pot of filipinos, polys, jps, and haoles) are very anti-non-hawaiian. the colleges in hawaii, esp. byu-hawaii have a huge team of foreign players for many years.

Are you a polynesian? by any chance?

No offense taken, I'm a haloe, but my wife is Filipina. I disagree though, there are plenty of Hawaiians here,hundreds of thousands actually, and I have 11 Hawaiian nieces and nephews, for instance, so I'm not sure where that comment came from. I can't decipher anti-non-Hawaiian right now,it's late, even here. That seems like some kind of double negative. No, tennis is not the biggest sport here, but we produce more than our fair share of oline men, MLB players and volleyball players. We've produced some decent tennis players too(per capita) and there some good players in the pipeline, including some who are Hawaiian.

Yeah, BYUH. Foreign players. I know.

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Aloha, I think your heart is in the right place, and I can understand where you are coming from.

But......here's the sledge hammer after the compliment--no, I hope you don't think so.

In junior tennis, the players and their families pay the coach. (yes, hound109, I know there are some exceptions)

In college tennis, the coach pays the players and their families.

And if the coach does a bad job choosing who to pay, the coach loses his/her own job.

Alumni donors and ADs.....I think....are in a better position to tell college tennis coaches what their jobs are.........than the employees or families of employees.

(OK, let me get my flak helmet on to defray shrapnel from others.......and possible friendly fire from you!!!)

I agree.

I'd like my alma mater's AD to keep it at one non-american per team. I'd like my state (for public colleges) & / or the NCAA (for all colleges) to enact rules or legislation to be no more than two per team. (& they all should be 18 years 11 months or younger when entering).

The N in NCAA doesn't stand for Non-american freshman who are 20 years old.

[Clemson_tennis]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

No offense taken, I'm a haloe, but my wife is Filipina. I disagree though, there are plenty of Hawaiians here,hundreds of thousands actually, and I have 11 Hawaiian nieces and nephews, for instance, so I'm not sure where that comment came from. I can't decipher anti-non-Hawaiian right now,it's late, even here. That seems like some kind of double negative. No, tennis is not the biggest sport here, but we produce more than our fair share of oline men, MLB players and volleyball players. We've produced some decent tennis players too(per capita) and there some good players in the pipeline, including some who are Hawaiian.

Yeah, BYUH. Foreign players. I know.

Dennis Lajola doing pretty well in the pro tour.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by hound 109

I agree.

I'd like my alma mater's AD to keep it at one non-american per team. I'd like my state (for public colleges) & / or the NCAA (for all colleges) to enact rules or legislation to be no more than two per team. (& they all should be 18 years 11 months or younger when entering).

The N in NCAA doesn't stand for Non-american freshman who are 20 years old.

As I stated previously, get out your checkbook and meet with your schools AD. If you agree to fund their scholarships, I'm certain you'll be able to make the rules on who can get the scholarships. If you leave it to the school to decide, they'll keep taking advantage of the loopholes to get better players and win more.

[boramiNYC]

As Craig Tiley noted in the first post, as much as the coaches in college and in general want to deny it, but quality environment for true self development in tennis in US is rare. The culture here is win, win, recruit, compete, and so on. Too political and not very supportive and disciplined for real player and skill development. And the kids are who are already good are 'talented' and who are not 'have no hope'. Complete lack of vision and leadership by coaching staff in general in US. There is no way to slow or stop competition without limits in this globalized world. The coaching staff hasn't kept up with the speed of change. Problem is those coaches think they are world class simply because they are in some kind of position in US. It's reflection of culture here and I don't see it changing easily and quickly.

[gameboy]

I don't know why some of you believe it is NCAA's job to make sure that US tennis players succeed. That is the job for USTA, not NCAA. I highly doubt that any collegiate athletic directors feel that way at all. Their job is to make sure that athletics bring desired benefits for the school, be it accolades, donations, etc..

Bringing in foreign players for tennis has many benefits for the schools. They bring desired diversity of culture to the campus and above all, make it easier to compete with other competitive programs.

Why anyone believes that that is something any athletic director wants to change is beyond me.

The current system exists because it is beneficial to all those involved. If not, the system will change (US tennis players getting better and US players dominated teams start winning). If developing US players led to more wins in the end, everyone would be doing it. Until then, all this bellyaching is not going to change anything and it is only going to be perceived as whinning by narcissistic players and parents.

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by gameboy

I don't know why some of you believe it is NCAA's job to make sure that US tennis players succeed. That is the job for USTA, not NCAA. I highly doubt that any collegiate athletic directors feel that way at all. Their job is to make sure that athletics bring desired benefits for the school, be it accolades, donations, etc..

Bringing in foreign players for tennis has many benefits for the schools. They bring desired diversity of culture to the campus and above all, make it easier to compete with other competitive programs.

Why anyone believes that that is something any athletic director wants to change is beyond me.

The current system exists because it is beneficial to all those involved. If not, the system will change (US tennis players getting better and US players dominated teams start winning). If developing US players led to more wins in the end, everyone would be doing it. Until then, all this bellyaching is not going to change anything and it is only going to be perceived as whinning by narcissistic players and parents.

To understand your point of view better, could you give us a little background about you? Thanks