Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

[LeeD]

You get no body weight behind your shots (forehand) because it's taken out to your side....like old school conti forehands.
Look at the gir's skirts, legs section. See how far forwards they all take their forehands, and look at the position of their arms and hand at contact.

[Cheetah]

You are swinging linearly. If you want a linear type swing that's fine. But you are going for the modern, angular, millenium, ssc, biting topspin swing right? Ok then...

Look at image #4. The butt is not pointing at the ball. In fact your butt never points at the ball throughout the swing. This is a clear indication the swing is wrong. If you do this right the butt will point at the ball for a long time. So... how do we do that? ...

1) Look at image #3. The racquet is not aligned properly for angular rotation. In this frame the throat of the racquet is lined up w/ the ball. Not good. The head of your racquet should be lined up with the ball at least, or even optimally imo more inside the ball. Meaning the ball should be a little farther out to the right than the head of the racquet. A little outside is better because this forces you to go out there to the right and get the ball and attack it and not scamper away timidly to the left to meet your imaginary dance partner you're so fond of.

See this forehand here by safin. He has the head of the racquet lined up with the ball as it's coming towards him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJgy...relmfu&t=2m06s

then...

2) During the backswing when you lower your hand it has to come closer to your body. Look at your hand in images 1 - 4. Your hand stays the same length away from your body the whole time. This is part of the problem. You need to lower your arm/hand and bring it closer to your body before the forward swing. Look at any pro who uses this method. They all do this.
Look at the above safin vid again to see him doing it. Or any fed, rafa, kohlscreiber or whoever vid.

Lowering the hand and letting it fall closer to the body does 2 things:
a. it lets your arm stay loose (as opposed to fighting your body and gravity by keeping it the same distance away from your body like in your images. Also I'd say to keep the head of your racquet a few more degrees higher than your hand. It looks like you are purposely trying to make it flat and get it into a PTD. Keep it up a little more like in the dozens of images i've posted.

b. Lowering the hand and letting it fall closer to you also allows you to accomplish the most important part you are missing which is...

3) Swing inside out. This type of fh is an inside out type of swing. The hand is closer to the body and then swings OUT to the right to meet the ball. In other words the hand gets increasing farther away from the body while pulling the butt towards the ball. Not straight at the ball like you are doing. Don't listen to other posters here who like to argue 'angular momentum can be expressed by linear components etc etc blah blah blah'. They don't know what they are talking about.

This swing is angular or more accurately uses angular momentum. The hand is close to body (or closer), you push up/off with the leg and rotate the core, the racquet tilts back ON IT'S OWN, the arm swings OUT TO THE RIGHT (as in towards the right net post or towards the side fence), not straight to the ball. just like the lock and roll guy demonstrates with his little drum. As he turns the drum the strings FLY OUT AWAY from the drum. As you can see described in the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwg9DB8S8a8

When you do this the racquet head will go behind your body like heath says on VTA (also not present in your images), like u can see in the Li Na pics above or as you can see w/ any pro. The racquet head will go behind the body but the hand is still in front of the body. This is because the path the racquet will take is INSIDE OUT, then it makes contact and continues around. If you have an inside out racquet path you will have that smooth looking swing (like the strings swinging around the drum, or fed, rafa or any pro for that matter) and your rhs will be much faster and this will happen with almost no arm muscling.

If you do the above steps the butt of the racquet will point to the ball like in Li Na image #2. Then you rotate, the arm flies out toward the right while moving forward and up and contact is made with a neutral wrist.

You should feel like you are dragging/pulling the butt towards the ball from under it. This is why u see a lot of pro making contact with the head a little under the hand. Because they were pulling the butt towards the ball from below. when the butt gets as far as your hiting structure allows it will start to move to the left across your body. Then the head catches up to the ball and is contacting the ball on an 'up and across' type of action. You'll get massive topspin and sidespin with this and the contact feels very solid almost like a well struct flat drive feeling.

You need to:
1) line the head up with the ball in prep. (ball should be more to the right then in your pics.
2) let the hand drop closer to the body and STAY LOOSE
3) push off/up with leg which will cause the racquet to flip back and down and give you the butt point
4) rotate core and LET the arm swing OUT TO THE RIGHT while pulling the butt towards the ball.

And no you don't need a straight arm for this. A bent arm fh still has an inside out motion. The arm goes from in to out. not a straight linear path.

[Greg G]

Arg. Wish I had seen this post before I went out to hit today! I think I killed my arm with about 10 baskets of balls

Anyway, here's some video. Was working on the loading of the leg and relaxing the arm. I did apparently get the butt pointed to the ball
http://youtu.be/ksAMDdwElKI

Still shots. I did apparently get the butt pointed to the ball in frames 4 & 5. Yay me.



Oh, and thanks for being patient with me through all this!

[Cheetah]

leg push looks good there.
yea you pointed for a micro-second there. inside out will make it better.

also you need to change the contact angle. the inside out might help with that too i think. currently you make contact on the outside of the ball like your hooking it and you sort of graze over the outside of the ball and the racquet face is tilted and angled. you should be making solid flat or pretty close to flat looking contact with the racquet.
as in Li Na pic #4.
This is the neutral wrist contact after the butt pull. this is why it feels really solid even though you get a lot of spin. contact is made squarely and you get the nice pop sound.

Look how squarely Fed makes contact here but still getting lots of spin and a nice pop. even when he cranks up the topspin near the middle of the vid contact is still square.

Roger inside/out swing and square contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4

safin inside out w/ square contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLo9_...e=relmfu&t=24s

[LeeD]

In the end, what matters is how your forehand is performing for you. Are you confident it can hit a forcing shot whenever you see one? Are you consistent AND powerful with that forehand?
Can the pace and spin, consistency and accuracy take you to the next level?
Great technique certainly helps, but having the ball go where and when you want it to, with the pace and spin you need, is the bottom line.

[Greg G]

Got it. The 2nd Fed video clarifies it quite well. Will work on it next, along with more looseness. Still feels a bit tense at times.

No issues with the PTD there? Looks a bit open, now that I look closely.

[Greg G]

Originally Posted by LeeD

In the end, what matters is how your forehand is performing for you. Are you confident it can hit a forcing shot whenever you see one? Are you consistent AND powerful with that forehand?
Can the pace and spin, consistency and accuracy take you to the next level?
Great technique certainly helps, but having the ball go where and when you want it to, with the pace and spin you need, is the bottom line.

Hi Leed, yeah a good point you make. And the thought has crossed my mind of when enough is enough. But the answer is definitely no. And it is in stark contrast to the backhand, which I hit without thinking. The whole reason I decided to retool is because the old forehand just wasn't a weapon. Not something I would run around my backhand for, and sometimes I would choose the backhand on center hit shots. This retooled forehand sometimes shows me that it can become a weapon- much more options than the old linear one, and I can actually hit winners off it. But it's a bit streaky right now, which is why I'm focusing on technique. It's still a ways to go, but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Plus, I'm the OC kind of guy who enjoys this kind of tinkering. Even in my junior days, I'd just take a basket out and work for hours. While I'd love to do that now, I have just a a couple hours a week to play- video analysis helps maximize the productivity of these sessions. And of course all your input is invaluable.

[Cheetah]

not quite there yet. still a little open. When you do the i/o swing and get the racquet to flip it will happen.

Kohlschreiber inside out path, racquet head behind the body, contact is made squarely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ye_nFXQCDI

your ptd won't be this flat tho cuz he has an extreme grip. ptd angle depends on grip

[sureshs]

It seems you were hitting DTL in the above?

Try CC. That is the real challenge.

[Greg G]

Wow that video reminds me how bad my footwork is right now

Hi suresh, I would have, but there was a guy playing in the other court, and I'm sure he wouldn't have appreciated 80 balls hit his way

[Cheetah]

he only hits cc or in the middle because he hooks the outside of the ball all the time so i'm guessing it was one of those and not dtl.

cc is not challenging if you make square contact. you just meet the ball earlier.

[LeeD]

I don't think you should torture yourself about your footwork compared to a 7.0 counterpuncher who uses his legs as much as his arms to win matches.
If he had your time for tennis, he'd likely have some poor footwork too.
You can STRIVE for perfection, but know none of us will ever attain it.

[Greg G]

Yes yes no inside out just yet

[Cheetah]

and then once you get today's lesson and technique down you'll finally b able to hit a real inside out fh. just hit later and inside of ball instead of how you do it now which is turn your whole body around and hit it cc to the right side haha

[LeeD]

Play doubles ad court, stand wide of your alley at all times, and you get to practice inside out forehands all day. Super easy shot.

[Greg G]

LOL. I can only wish. I do play on the ad side, backhand return is excellent from there. Forehand-- not so much yet.

Since LeeD brought it up, here's some video from today's point play. If I can get the forehand to the level of my backhand, I'd be over the moon. Perhaps footwork also comes from confidence in the shot? I seem to move to the left better than the right.

http://youtu.be/iRoyfX5XgzQ

Now the REAL frustration comes from my serve. It's improving but my second serve is often attackable. But that's an issue for another thread

[LeeD]

Your pursuit of perfection, while noble and valid to a point, is a fruitless search, since you don't have enough hours in the week to implement your newly learned movement and strokes.

[Greg G]

Enjoy the journey my friend

Originally Posted by Cheetah

and then once you get today's lesson and technique down you'll finally b able to hit a real inside out fh. just hit later and inside of ball instead of how you do it now which is turn your whole body around and hit it cc to the right side haha

The wrist is not always neutral, (Heath has this wrong IMO), and in fact, what you are describing (turn your whole body and hit it cc) is a result of the wrist being too neutral. The angle of the wrist (how much "wrist layback") is the principal dictator of the shot line, so the wrist would tend to be MORE laid back on an inside out forehand.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by chico9166

The wrist is not always neutral, (Heath has this wrong IMO), and in fact, what you are describing (turn your whole body and hit it cc) is a result of the wrist being too neutral. The angle of the wrist (how much "wrist layback") is the principal dictator of the shot line, so the wrist would tend to be MORE laid back on an inside out forehand.

I disagree.

Heath has it right imo.
Show me one video of a male pro that is not hitting down the line or inside out, is using ssc, is not using excessive ISR for topspin (ie david ferrer) and does not have a neutral wrist on contact.
I say you can't.

The 'wrist layback' determining shot line is for a different type of fh. (unless you're going dtl or inside out, where the wrist will be laid back a little on i/o and occasionally on dtl but not always, which i've mentioned several times in this thread and is also mentioned by Heath)

The 'turn the whole body and hit it cc' comment was me describing what the OP currently does when he hits i/o. He doesn't know how to hit an i/o fh yet and when he does go i/o that's what he does. I wasn't describing what he 'should' do.