Serve speed guns/radar

[CRWV]

Originally Posted by Romismak

...but i can´t see him hit much harder than say Raonic today-who is regularly hitting hardest 1st serves-135mph-low 140s all the time if flat bomb.

Raonic v Querrey rd 2 Wimby 2012:

avg 122/105, fastest 139/120

Not quite...

[Andres]

Originally Posted by CRWV

Raonic v Querrey rd 2 Wimby 2012:

avg 122/105, fastest 139/120

Not quite...

He said 'if flat bomb'. Raonic uses a remarkable ammount of slice and big kickserves on his first serve, therefore skewing his average speed down.

[CRWV]

Originally Posted by Andres

He said 'if flat bomb'. Raonic uses a remarkable ammount of slice and big kickserves on his first serve, therefore skewing his average speed down.

He also made it sound like he hits 140+ at will, which he did not do once in that match...

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by Andres

He said 'if flat bomb'. Raonic uses a remarkable ammount of slice and big kickserves on his first serve, therefore skewing his average speed down.

Do you think a Sampras 128mph serve from 1998 would be clocked at 150mph with today's guns Andres?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Do you think a Sampras 128mph serve from 1998 would be clocked at 150mph with today's guns Andres?

Sampras mid 140's, Becker 150.

[Romismak]

Originally Posted by CRWV

Raonic v Querrey rd 2 Wimby 2012:

avg 122/105, fastest 139/120

Not quite...

I said flat, so about average there is not much to talk, he has amazing slice serve-which is very fast for flat but logically slice will your average take down..

about fastest-139was his fastest what is pretty slow considering for him- his fastest at RG was 147mph , i don´t know if those heavy balls at Wimby have impact or he wasn´t serving his best that day, but Raonic when you watch him on any other tournament like i am - he hits flat bombs on 1st serve between 220-230 all the time if you want bigger difference that from 210-233 kph all the time what is in MPH - lower 140s

don´t even mentioning SAN Jose and Memphis which is indoors and his fastst serve are very fast there, many of them in 140s- mid 140s a lot of them and also few in 150s.... so you probably didn´t watched Raonic serving on any other tournament besides this Wimbledon...

[Andres]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Do you think a Sampras 128mph serve from 1998 would be clocked at 150mph with today's guns Andres?

Not really. But in my opinion, Sampras never had the biggest serve. He had a huge serve, meaning it was fast as hell, and incredibly heavy. I always felt serves from Sampras and Becker being like trying to return bricks: something you would need to apply a lot of force to return it. In Goran and Richard's case, I always felt his serves were more a matter of actually NOT seeing the ball. They served faster than Boris or Pete.

I think, if we try to put it in layman's terms, receiving from Pete or Boom Boom would be like trying to deflect a cannonball, while receiving from Goran or Krajicek was more like trying to DUCK a rifle shot.

Having seen plenty of Sampras, and plenty of modern servers, and having compared both by video analysis and audio analysis, I'd say Pete was serving around 138 - 145. I'd say he served like a prime Ljubicic.

Goran, in 1996, was a beast. He was clocking 136 mph back then. He clocked 142 in the seniors tour last year. Comparing the indoor events from 1996 vs. modern Raonic, prime Roddick or prime Dent, and he's not behind. In modern guns, with his good '96 shoulder, Goran would be clocking 150s.

I'll try measuring something for you guys to compare. Gimme a couple of days.

This video is a good reference of Goran in one of those days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKIUYkop5tY

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Andres

Not really. But in my opinion, Sampras never had the biggest serve. He had a huge serve, meaning it was fast as hell, and incredibly heavy. I always felt serves from Sampras and Becker being like trying to return bricks: something you would need to apply a lot of force to return it. In Goran and Richard's case, I always felt his serves were more a matter of actually NOT seeing the ball. They served faster than Boris or Pete.

I think, if we try to put it in layman's terms, receiving from Pete or Boom Boom would be like trying to deflect a cannonball, while receiving from Goran or Krajicek was more like trying to DUCK a rifle shot.

Having seen plenty of Sampras, and plenty of modern servers, and having compared both by video analysis and audio analysis, I'd say Pete was serving around 138 - 145. I'd say he served like a prime Ljubicic.

Goran, in 1996, was a beast. He was clocking 136 mph back then. He clocked 142 in the seniors tour last year. Comparing the indoor events from 1996 vs. modern Raonic, prime Roddick or prime Dent, and he's not behind. In modern guns, with his good '96 shoulder, Goran would be clocking 150s.

I'll try measuring something for you guys to compare. Gimme a couple of days.

This video is a good reference of Goran in one of those days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKIUYkop5tY

Thanks! Question: The biggest serve I've ever seen clocked live was by Philippoussis back in about 99' at Key Biscayne against Wayne Ferreira. According to the clock on the court he cranked several serves in the 140's and hit one at 149. The crowd uttered a collective "woah" at that serve. Yet, it seems the fastest serve he is credited with is 142. Any explanation?

[Andres]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Thanks! Question: The biggest serve I've ever seen clocked live was by Philippoussis back in about 99' at Key Biscayne against Wayne Ferreira. According to the clock on the court he cranked several serves in the 140's and hit one at 149. The crowd uttered a collective "woah" at that serve. Yet, it seems the fastest serve he is credited with is 142. Any explanation?

His 142 mph serve was the fastest serve ever recorded at the time. Then, it was surpassed by Rusedski's 149. And then, it was like any Scud serve under 149 didn't matter, even if they were bigger than 142.

Same happened to Goran. He clocked a 136 mph in 1994. It was the biggest official serve at the time. In fact, he's often credited at topping at 136 (even HIMSELF believes it was his fastest), yet he hit a 224 kmh (139 mph) serve in early 1998 and then a 228 kmh (141.7 mph) later that year.

It's like "if it's not a record, we just dont care"

In fact, I still see websites claiming only 4 people reaching the 150 mph mark, when in reality there are several (verified) others

[scotus]

When asked about the difficulties involved in returning Sampras' serves, Agassi (post-retirement, I believe) described Pete's serves as 140-mph serves in one interview

[NonP]

Originally Posted by The-Champ

If Rafa can serve 135, I'm sure Pete would exceed that by quite a bit.

I actually don't think Pete and Rafa are that far apart in top-end speeds. IMO Pete's would top out around low 140s. Maybe mid-140s would be doable, but they'd be very rare.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Goran served 145 during an exo last year.
didn't Sampras get to 140 at an exo in San Jose last year? And his readings were high in the Fed exos as well, seemed higher than they were on his last year on tour. Maybe that was more about his new racquet than the radar guns.

Probably not. As I just said on the other thread, the new racquets and strings do most likely help increase average serve speeds, but not so much in the top range. Of course there's also the fact that he's no longer 24 years old.

I recall the new radar guns coming around 2003/2004(the '04 USO had really high mph's throughout, I think they were on average higher than they were at last year's Open actually, I was looking up the old USO websites a while back)

It's really hard to know which ones are more "accurate," unless somebody can go back and research the radar at every one of the events. It's important to keep in mind that the radar guns aren't uniform across the tour even today. Never have been, and probably never will be. The outliers at Davis Cup and Queen's are the ones we only know of, there could well be others in use right now that we still have no clue about. The one that captured Samuel Groth's new "record" comes to mind (provided that it wasn't a radar malfunction).

I read an article that discussed average mph's throughout the years & I think it mentioned there was a rather noticeable increase in the mph tour average from '99 to '04

Yes, there's no doubt that the new guns came into wide use around this time frame.

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Sampras mid 140's, Becker 150.

This sounds about right, though, again, I'd shave off a couple mph. Boris could approach 150, but not IMO top it.

Originally Posted by Andres

Not really. But in my opinion, Sampras never had the biggest serve. He had a huge serve, meaning it was fast as hell, and incredibly heavy. I always felt serves from Sampras and Becker being like trying to return bricks: something you would need to apply a lot of force to return it. In Goran and Richard's case, I always felt his serves were more a matter of actually NOT seeing the ball. They served faster than Boris or Pete.

I think, if we try to put it in layman's terms, receiving from Pete or Boom Boom would be like trying to deflect a cannonball, while receiving from Goran or Krajicek was more like trying to DUCK a rifle shot.

Having seen plenty of Sampras, and plenty of modern servers, and having compared both by video analysis and audio analysis, I'd say Pete was serving around 138 - 145. I'd say he served like a prime Ljubicic.

Goran, in 1996, was a beast. He was clocking 136 mph back then. He clocked 142 in the seniors tour last year. Comparing the indoor events from 1996 vs. modern Raonic, prime Roddick or prime Dent, and he's not behind. In modern guns, with his good '96 shoulder, Goran would be clocking 150s.

I'll try measuring something for you guys to compare. Gimme a couple of days.

This video is a good reference of Goran in one of those days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKIUYkop5tY

And everything here is pretty much bang on. Krajicek probably had the bigger bomb down the T (arguably the best ever), but Goran was the king out wide, especially on the deuce court.

BTW I love that Goran video you referenced. Apart from the serve he was playing with so much abandon and confidence in that match, and moving awfully well for a 6'4"er. It's a shame he didn't play with the same confidence more often at the majors. Or maybe not, we don't wanna spoil his 2001 Wimbledon run in any way.

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by Andres

Not really. But in my opinion, Sampras never had the biggest serve. He had a huge serve, meaning it was fast as hell, and incredibly heavy. I always felt serves from Sampras and Becker being like trying to return bricks: something you would need to apply a lot of force to return it. In Goran and Richard's case, I always felt his serves were more a matter of actually NOT seeing the ball. They served faster than Boris or Pete.

I think, if we try to put it in layman's terms, receiving from Pete or Boom Boom would be like trying to deflect a cannonball, while receiving from Goran or Krajicek was more like trying to DUCK a rifle shot.

Having seen plenty of Sampras, and plenty of modern servers, and having compared both by video analysis and audio analysis, I'd say Pete was serving around 138 - 145. I'd say he served like a prime Ljubicic.

Goran, in 1996, was a beast. He was clocking 136 mph back then. He clocked 142 in the seniors tour last year. Comparing the indoor events from 1996 vs. modern Raonic, prime Roddick or prime Dent, and he's not behind. In modern guns, with his good '96 shoulder, Goran would be clocking 150s.

I'll try measuring something for you guys to compare. Gimme a couple of days.

This video is a good reference of Goran in one of those days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKIUYkop5tY

But Andres, Sampras served under the new guns in 2001/2002 and served 128-136. Have there been new speed guns since then again?

And wouldn't that mean Philipoussis, Krajicek and Rusedski would be serving 165mph since they served 20mph faster than Pete?

I mean Tsonga doesn't serve any faster than Pete did in 2001/2002 and serves just as many aces as Sampras did.

I agree with you about Goran though. I just think 145mph is a bit on the high end for Sampras. He served the same in his Federer exhibitions in 2007 at 37 as he did as 31 in 2001/2002 so there's consistency there too.

[Andres]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

But Andres, Sampras served under the new guns in 2001/2002 and served 128-136. Have there been new speed guns since then again?

And wouldn't that mean Philipoussis, Krajicek and Rusedski would be serving 165mph since they served 20mph faster than Pete?

I mean Tsonga doesn't serve any faster than Pete did in 2001/2002 and serves just as many aces as Sampras did.

I agree with you about Goran though. I just think 145mph is a bit on the high end for Sampras. He served the same in his Federer exhibitions in 2007 at 37 as he did as 31 in 2001/2002 so there's consistency there too.

In Sampras case, that 138-145 range I referred to I was talking about top speeds, and not average speeds.

I have Sampras clocked as high as 139 mph during his prime. It's not like he was ALWAYS serving 125-128 mph. He was averaging those speeds. Scud or Richard were never serving 20 mph faster than him. Their top speeds were quite similar, with those guys being a mere 5, 7 mph faster.

In fact, he served 136 mph last year against Fed. Or was it 2010? Anyway, it's not too farfetched to think he could be serving at 138 - 145 mph back then when he was 25/26 years old and in the heights of his prime.

[Andres]

For example, in terms of top speeds, I don't have Richard higher than 139. It'd be awesome if someone would show me a match with a higher gun clock. But in those relative terms, Pete and Richie both top at the same speed. I believe Richard could and should be able to, at least, outserve Sampras by a good 5, 7 mph. He averaged a fastest first serve pretty much his entire career.

[BeHappy]

Well, that 139mph was at Davis Cup, and so was Goran's actually. It's just that Sampras never hit over 128mph until those new guns came in, and when he did the fastest serve he ever hit in 2-3 years of new guns on the ordinary tour was 136mph-137mph, so it's hard to see where the top serve of 145mph could come from.

I always thought Krajicek was serving much harder than Sampras but it must just have been flatter because he's so tall. But still, Phillippoussis and Rusedski were definitely hitting in the 140's mph, Scud served 142 mph and Rusedski served 149mph which is 15-20 mph faster than Sampras was serving in the 90's.

[Andres]

Pete's 139 that I've seen and registered was on the northamerican masters event. I don't know if it was either Cincinatti, Canada Masters or the USO. Wasn't on DC.

Goran's 139 and 141 were on the european indoor swing. Lyon, Paris Masters and such. Again, no DC

There's something funny about Rusedski. He NEVER used to go over 140/142 mph. That one 149 mph serve was an anomaly, and never again topped 142 mph. He was really lucky for one serve

[Andres]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Well, that 139mph was at Davis Cup, and so was Goran's actually. It's just that Sampras never hit over 128mph until those new guns came in, and when he did the fastest serve he ever hit in 2-3 years of new guns on the ordinary tour was 136mph-137mph, so it's hard to see where the top serve of 145mph could come from.

Disagreed on Sampras. In fact, he was hitting 135 mph in 1998, USO 4th round, against Safin. No Getronic guns. I found the match on Youtube, lemme link you to that particular serve

[bjk]

Do MLB pitchers throw faster than they did 20 years ago, or is the gun? I remember 94 used to be considered top of the range. Now it seems like 97 is the new 94.

[LeeD]

Out to lunch.
BobGibson had a faster fastball than NolanRyan, for sure, and Nolan was clocked at 99.
A young RandyJohnson just exceeded the 100 barrier, but not the older RandyJohnson with the SFGiants.
You guys are out to lunch. You only quote tournament speeds. THINK, which you don't do. In a tournament, the player is trying for placement AND percentage, both of which slow the ball speeds down. All players can serve FASTER than their tournament recorded speeds.
Just like you and me. NOBODY sees our best days. EVERYONE sees our worse days...

[Andres]

Oh, I agree 100% with you. I know they ALL can serve faster. I'm absolutely sure about it. Thing is, just like with any sports, you gotta go with the official readings. If not, it's just a guessing game. And of course, there's no use of having a 160 mph serve if you can't bring it to the court in matchplay.